How do you bid slam

[Wackojack]

These hands came up in a challenge.

 

http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?bbo=y&lin=pn%7CWackojack%2CRobot%2CRobot%2CRobot%7Cst%7C%7Cmd%7C1SA32HAKJ5DAK986CT%2CSQJ854H64D43CKJ73%2CSK7H972DQT72CA942%2CST96HQT83DJ5CQ865%7Csv%7CE%7Cah%7CBoard%203%7Cmb%7C1D%7Can%7CMinor%20suit%20opening%20--%203%2B%20%21D%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%2012-22%20total%20points%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C1N%7Can%7C2-5%20%21C%3B%202-4%20%21D%3B%202-3%20%21H%3B%202-3%20%21S%3B%206-10%20HCP%3B%207%2B%20total%20points%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C3N%7Can%7C3%2B%20%21D%3B%205-%20%21H%3B%205-%20%21S%3B%2019-21%20HCP%3B%2022-%20total%20points%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CP%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CH5%7C

 

Using I stress a standard system, how can you get suggest a method of getting to 6♦?

 

PS How do I make this diagram bigger? I just copied and pasted the handviewer URL

[JanisW]

[hv=pc=n&s=sa32hakj5dak986ct&w=sqj854h64d43ckj73&n=sk7h972dqt72ca942&e=st96hqt83dj5cq865&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=1dp1n(6-10%3B%20no%204M)p3n(19-21HCP)ppp]499|400[/hv]

 

3NT is just too lazy. Reverse into 2H now N can show the ♦-Fit.

[gszes]

Agree with JANISW that a 2h bid at least tries to get a picture of your hand to partner. I feel the follow up should be 2N as artificial support allowing opener to pattern out. 2N is a very tiny target opposite what rates to be a distributional opening hand so giving up 2n is fine saving 3d for a preference with no strong reason to bid 3n. The 2n bid does not rule out 3n as a final contract but facilitates finding out more about opener's hand and thus making a much more informed decision about how to proceed when the odds of 5m or more are increased. This hand would go 1d 1n 2h 2n 3c (I prefer opener to show short suit if any) 4c (cue the club ace to show possible slam and warn p out of expecting too much if they were void in clubs) 4d rkc (p is showing a great hand for slam 4d cannot be to play) 4h (1 or 4) 4s dia Q? 5s yes and spade K opener now know responder has Spade K dia Q and club A. It is unreasonable to ask for more than this for a 1n response so 7d is at BEST on a finesse settle for 6d.

[Cyberyeti]

Well something that's pretty standard over here, this is a pretty minimum 1♦-2♦ F1 not FG inverted after which it's trivial.

 

But playing what you play, yes 2♥ over 1N is good, also how many diamonds did 1♦ show ?

[ggwhiz]

1♦ - 1nt - 2♥ - 3♦ creates a game force for my partnership (responder goes through 2nt with lesser hands)

 

After that start cue bidding and north has room to show the ♣Ace and ♠King below game

[Wackojack]

Well something that's pretty standard over here, this is a pretty minimum 1♦-2♦ F1 not FG inverted after which it's trivial.

 

But playing what you play, yes 2♥ over 1N is good, also how many diamonds did 1♦ show ?

 

Yes my robot partner was playing that 1♦ could show 3 then 1NT was correct. I normally play that 1♦ guarantees a 4 card suit. Then the bidding could go 1♦ -2♦ -3♣ (singleton) North has now said everything and will bid 3♦. Now I suppose South could blast 4N and bid 6♦ after finding 1 ace.

[Wackojack]

Agree with JANISW that a 2h bid at least tries to get a picture of your hand to partner. I feel the follow up should be 2N as artificial support allowing opener to pattern out. 2N is a very tiny target opposite what rates to be a distributional opening hand so giving up 2n is fine saving 3d for a preference with no strong reason to bid 3n. The 2n bid does not rule out 3n as a final contract but facilitates finding out more about opener's hand and thus making a much more informed decision about how to proceed when the odds of 5m or more are increased. This hand would go 1d 1n 2h 2n 3c (I prefer opener to show short suit if any) 4c (cue the club ace to show possible slam and warn p out of expecting too much if they were void in clubs) 4d rkc (p is showing a great hand for slam 4d cannot be to play) 4h (1 or 4) 4s dia Q? 5s yes and spade K opener now know responder has Spade K dia Q and club A. It is unreasonable to ask for more than this for a 1n response so 7d is at BEST on a finesse settle for 6d.

 

Yes I should have tried 2♥ after 1NT. It would have been interesting to here what GIB would have made of that I tend to agree that 2N would then be forcing. After that I am not sure that 3♣ should be taken as a singleton. It would be more natural to bid 3♠ the fragment to show 3451 distribution.

[pescetom]

We play 1♦ opening as 4+ cards. While North is borderline for a natural 2♦ raise, I would prefer 1NT.

In either case modern italian cue-bidding would lead us straight there.

Here is the probable bidding after 1NT:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sa32hakj5dak986ct&w=sqj854h64d43ckj73&n=sk7h972dqt72ca942&e=st96hqt83dj5cq865&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=1d(4+ cards)p1n(6-10%3B%20no%204M)p2h(forcing to 3D)p3c(4+ cards)p3s(forcing to game)p4d(fixes trumps, forcing)p4h(H control)p4s(S control)p4n(even key-cards)p5c(C control)p5h(H control)p6d(deny S control; qD; deny C control)ppp]480|360[/hv]

[pescetom]

It is unreasonable to ask for more than this for a 1n response so 7d is at BEST on a finesse settle for 6d.

Even 6♦ looks unlikely unless trumps split 2-2 (about 40%) or the Q♥ is in East (50%), so a 70% small slam at best.

With 28 HCP on the line that's still good going.

[Cyberyeti]

Even 6♦ looks unlikely unless trumps split 2-2 (about 40%) or the Q♥ is in East (50%), so a 70% small slam at best.

With 28 HCP on the line that's still good going.

 

Your maths is faulty, there are lines that make where none of that is true

[Winstonm]

1D-1N

2H-3D

3H-3S

4C-5C

5H-6D

P

 

I would play on reverse dummy lines.

[pescetom]

Your maths is faulty, there are lines that make where none of that is true

 

My maths is fine, but of course those two are not the only factors: I agree there are other lines that make, and for that matter other ways one could go down, although the overall situation is favourable.

My point was that the slam is merely reasonable and the grand a huge risk, even if it happens to make.

[NickRW]

Using I stress a standard system, how can you get suggest a method of getting to 6♦?

 

Any strong club system would get you there as well as all these other fine suggestions

[Cyberyeti]

My maths is fine, but of course those two are not the only factors: I agree there are other lines that make, and for that matter other ways one could go down, although the overall situation is favourable.

My point was that the slam is merely reasonable and the grand a huge risk, even if it happens to make.

 

You don't want to be anywhere near a grand, but the small is IMO more than just reasonable.

[dsLawsd]

After 2♥ responder should bid 2S implying a diamond fit in a max for 1NT. 2H in my view implies an unbalanced hand. After the spade control South can bid 3 Diamonds waiting and after the 4 C return Cue South can just bid the slam. But not getting there really is not so bad particularly if bad breaks and the heart Q perhaps not working...

[PhilG007]

[hv=pc=n&s=sa32hakj5dak986ct&w=sqj854h64d43ckj73&n=sk7h972dqt72ca942&e=st96hqt83dj5cq865&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=1dp1n(6-10%3B%20no%204M)p3n(19-21HCP)ppp]499|400[/hv]

 

3NT is just too lazy. Reverse into 2H now N can show the ♦-Fit.

Why didn't North support his partner's suit immediately by bidding 3♦(?!) The suit is now fixed

and slam investigations can begin

[MinorKid]

Why didn't North support his partner's suit immediately by bidding 3♦(?!) The suit is now fixed

and slam investigations can begin

 

Playing inverted minor the responder is one HCP short for 1♦-2♦ and also one diamond short for the preemptive 1♦-3♦. A 9HCP hand would start with 1♦-1NT and support next round.

[fourdad]

[hv=pc=n&s=sa32hakj5dak986ct&w=sqj854h64d43ckj73&n=sk7h972dqt72ca942&e=st96hqt83dj5cq865&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=1dp1n(6-10%3B%20no%204M)p3n(19-21HCP)ppp]499|400[/hv]

 

3NT is just too lazy. Reverse into 2H now N can show the ♦-Fit.

Not only too lazy, but it fails to accurately describe the SHAPE of you hand to partner. Besides that, 2NT implies a club stop does it not?

[msjennifer]

The raise to 3NT is a clumsy ,if not atrocious, bid on the present hand.

Many players play a 2H bid as only one round force.But even so one will get a chance to make another bid.

With 8Controls and a singleton in the minor suit a very slight overbid will be a jump shift forcing to game.However ,playing with a Robot I shall just make the simple reverse bid of 2H.I ,personally, do not feel that there would be any difficulty in reaching the slam as even the Robot May look at the SK,DQ10xx plus the club Ace will not find any difficulty in establishing the D fit and cue bidding or worse A Key card Blackwood enquirer to reach the slam.

Just to remind, the clumsy 3NT gave up all the faintest hope of slam as it can be made on many other hands not suitable for making any other bid.Responder will certainly note that you have bypassed a few forcing bids and made a discouraging 3NT bid.

If playing Super Precision it will be a very simple hand to comfortably reach 6D.However, very few ,if any,are willing to learn,digest and play it.

[0deary]

The first hurdle is just to agree D at all. Because in SAYC BBO convention card 1D= 3+

 

But I’d expect us to get here 1D-1N-2H-3D

 

As I see it the next hurdle is too hard though

 

Its for South to make the call:- 19 points plus max 9 opposite means we are missing ~12 points: thats a lot!

 

At match points you really don’t want to end up in 5D (by exploring beyond 3N) at all (because e.g. +400 will not compare with +430 in 3N). So I just think its clear to bang 3N

 

At imps we might have a little more scope. The difference between 5D and 3N isn’t going to cost more than the odd imp. So if it worth exploring 6D now?

 

South will have to think about North shape very carefully now. Slightly different flat North hands could mean very poor chances. All you know is that North show 8/9 points (didn’t rebid 2N), 4 diamonds and < 4 in both majors but there is plenty of problematic shape for us: e.g. a 3343 gives us very poor chances. Can I conveniently explore North’s shape before 5D? The trouble is we are off to the races without our saddle: 3H-4C-4N just tells me control information but nothing more about shape. All in all I’m for 3N again unless….

 

Unless your team is badly down and you really need a result…if so don’t paint the picture too clearly for opponents (e.g. 3H-4C-4N)- just bang 6D and sit back after your team mates offer congratulations!

[msjennifer]

It is very sad that many players do not know that once a suit fit of 8/9cards is established it is the LTC and not the HCP is to be considered.The famous hand where a pair holding a combined 5 (five)HCP makes a cold 7Spades is well known.We won a regional on the basis of LTC on the following hand.

West ,the dealer,opened a weak NT.

North holdings Qxxx-AQxxx-Void-xxxx overcalled 2C(LANDY).East after making a lot of enquiries Passed. South(me) holding x-xx-xxxx-AKQxxx also passed.West came to the rescue by 2D.North knowing that S holds six clubs for his pass bid 3Club.West now bid 4S.(having made a trap pass),I bid 5 Club and it went pas pass to West who doubled so loudly that the roof was blown away.Result—5Cx made with one over trick.Our pair in the other room made 3NT when a club was not led by North. Count the HCP a total of 8 plus 9 =17 only.Count the losers North has six and South has 6.A total of 12 losers.18minus 12=6 .A correct estimate of the contract made.So that’s all to the so called HCP count which is only a crude guide for FLAT and no fit No Trump type hands.

[steve2005]

Yes my robot partner was playing that 1♦ could show 3 then 1NT was correct. I normally play that 1♦ guarantees a 4 card suit. Then the bidding could go 1♦ -2♦ -3♣ (singleton) North has now said everything and will bid 3♦. Now I suppose South could blast 4N and bid 6♦ after finding 1 ace.

Robot- good luck you try for slam you may end up in a hopeless one.

[DozyDom]

It is very sad that many players do not know that once a suit fit of 8/9cards is established it is the LTC and not the HCP is to be considered.The famous hand where a pair holding a combined 5 (five)HCP makes a cold 7Spades is well known.We won a regional on the basis of LTC on the following hand.

West ,the dealer,opened a weak NT.

North holdings Qxxx-AQxxx-Void-xxxx overcalled 2C(LANDY).East after making a lot of enquiries Passed. South(me) holding x-xx-xxxx-AKQxxx also passed.West came to the rescue by 2D.North knowing that S holds six clubs for his pass bid 3Club.West now bid 4S.(having made a trap pass),I bid 5 Club and it went pas pass to West who doubled so loudly that the roof was blown away.Result—5Cx made with one over trick.Our pair in the other room made 3NT when a club was not led by North. Count the HCP a total of 8 plus 9 =17 only.Count the losers North has six and South has 6.A total of 12 losers.18minus 12=6 .A correct estimate of the contract made.So that’s all to the so called HCP count which is only a crude guide for FLAT and no fit No Trump type hands.

 

On the other hand, the main issue here is that they didn't establish the 9 card fit. Surely, even if people rarely mention the LTC, even a relative beginner like me knows you don't need nearly as many points for game/slam when you've got a good fit and some shortages...

[Winstonm]

On the other hand, the main issue here is that they didn't establish the 9 card fit. Surely, even if people rarely mention the LTC, even a relative beginner like me knows you don't need nearly as many points for game/slam when you've got a good fit and some shortages...

 

Probably my fault but I always assume that after a reverse we are always using Lebensohl to distinguish between solid raises and not-so-solid and even poor hands. If that is the case, 3D after the reverse shows the top end of the 1N bid and a good fit, though not guaranteed to be 4 card, the furtherance of a slam investigation makes it clear that it is 4-card length.

 

This gets down to general methods - what type identity of bidding do you choose. The methods I am used to playing would have allowed a fairly easy ride to 6D - but that is only due to the fact that after 3D, 3H would be a mild slam try, and the 3S would be an cooperative acceptance of a that slam try, meaning the 1NT hand is suitable (in the acution) to cooperate getting to slam.

 

If you don't use cooperative-slam-investigation methods, this hand is harder to bid.

[JonnyQuest]

Many players play a 2H bid as only one round force. But even so one will get a chance to make another bid.

With 8Controls and a singleton in the minor suit a very slight overbid will be a jump shift forcing to game.However, playing with a Robot I shall just make the simple reverse bid of 2H.

 

So, you play some sort of bifurcated range for 2♥ and 3♥ here? I've never heard of jump-shifting into a suit that can be reversed into, since, with more than a minimum reverse (game-force) you can just refuse to sign-off in her weakness-showing sign-off.

What are your approximate ranges? If a Game-Force rebid (3♥ in your methods) with a massive 21HCP and control rich hand is a "slight overbid," what exactly would be required to make it solid?