Agree with 2 spade bid?

[dickiegera]

[hv=pc=n&w=sak8hakj86datca43&e=sqt63h43dk63cq986&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=2cp2dp2hp2sp3sp4sppp]266|200|2 diamonds shows no Ace at most 1 king[/hv]

 

Partner and I disagree on the bidding.

 

West says I should have raised hearts and 2♠ shows 5 spades.

 

 

I east don't agree .

 

Also would 2NT be a better bid than 2♠ or 2 hearts?

We play puppet stayman so west could still show the 5 card Heart suit.

 

Thank you

[hrothgar]

I consider raising hearts on xx an unusual and inferior treatment

 

I prefer 2NT to 2!S

[Winstonm]

Obviously, you had a problem else you would not have posted, but personally, I don't see a problem hand. I see this as a pretty automatic 2NT - depending on your response system, either an immediate 2N over 2C or a follow-up 2N after the 2D bid. If partner held a strong 4/5, he can bid 3S over 2N. In fact, once you agree that 2N is forcing to game in this auction, it becomes simpler to bid your hands.

[Cyberyeti]

W has no trump shape, why not bid it like that, 2N rebid is auto.

[diana_eva]

I merged the two identical threads into a single one, deleted a dup reply by winston.

[helene_t]

Yes you should bid 2NT. I am not sure if 2♠ should promise five, probably not, but you have stoppers in all unbid suits and a balanced hand so 2NT feels more natural.

 

In any case, when partner raises you should realize that he might have only three spades, so you should bid 3NT now.

 

Raising hearts on a doubleton is not a good idea. Certainly not when you have a good alternative.

[steve2005]

You can agree to what ever you want! 2♠ can mean 4+ or 5+ just choose.

But if 2♠ can be 4 east should suggest 3N with 4 ♠ and a stopper in both minors.

[ggwhiz]

Given that you play puppet 2nt is an improvement instead of 2♥ or most definitely 2♠ but failing that, east should certainly bid 3nt instead of 4♠.

[Cthulhu D]

Edit: Whoops

 

Yeah, so opener should rebid 2NT not 2H as he has a 22-23 NT hand, and then you can do everything nicely.

[ahydra]

Well, 4S doesn't look like a complete disaster does it? Did the trumps break 5-1 or something ugly like that?

 

Is 2NT over 2H a "second negative"? If so, you're a bit good for that and need to find something else, so 2S can only promise four. You had a chance to clarify your spade holding as being only four cards by bidding 3NT over 3S.

 

But Cyberyeti is right, West should start with 2NT as he is balanced, even more so if playing puppet. That would solve all problems - you bid 3C, then 3H-3NT and done.

 

ahydra

 

edit: Chthulu, I think you posted on the wrong thread?

[rmnka447]

As long as 2 NT is not a second negative, then it is right instead of 2 ♠.

 

I also agree that 2 NT would be better than 2 ♥ by opener.

[0deary]

You can’t use 2C-2D-2H because that virtually sets the suit contract and the Hs are not so strong

 

Certainly 2C-2D-2N-3C-3H-3N is solid and secure

 

But I’d suggest you don’t. You know you are going to express west as a balanced powerhouse but you only have bare Ace in both minors- absolutely no intermediates. I’d treat the hand as a 20-22 hand. If east have a blizzard opposite west you fare better there. As it is 2N-3C-3H-3N is fine (I'd ignore easts 4 spades after 3H now and just go 3N)

[nekthen]

The first wrong bid is the foundation for all future misunderstandings. As such it is meaningless to criticise 2♠ as the first wrong bid is 2♥. Clearly if you are playing puppet stayman, this hand is a 2N rebid. The important thing is the implications of choosing to bid 2♥. Either 2♥ is a 6+ card suit or the bidder has a secondary suit to reveal. Therefore, 2♠ is imo the best bid as it takes up no bidding space. (Indeed you might consider making it a second artificial relay asking p to define his hand further, a 2N response to 2♠ could show spades)

[nekthen]

You can’t use 2C-2D-2H because that virtually sets the suit contract and the Hs are not so strong

 

Certainly 2C-2D-2N-3C-3H-3N is solid and secure

 

But I’d suggest you don’t. You know you are going to express west as a balanced powerhouse but you only have bare Ace in both minors- absolutely no intermediates. I’d treat the hand as a 20-22 hand. If east have a blizzard opposite west you fare better there. As it is 2N-3C-3H-3N is fine

 

Interesting to note that the Banzai Count is 32 which equates to a HCP count of 22. This counts A = 5 down to 10 = 1 plus 1 for a 5 card suit. Apart from the length, this gives a score out of 60 and can be multiplied by 2/3 to give an equivalent to the HCP value. I only bother to work this out for NT hands that are borderline, but I find it gives a concrete reason to agree that this is not a full on 23 count.

 

PS There is a short cut to working out the Banzai value. Start with the HCP already calculated, 23 add 8 for the 8 cards of 10 or more and 1 for the 5 card suit = 32

[msjennifer]

As is normally played the 2S bid is incorrect as it shows a 5 plus card spade suit.

The correct bid on your holding is 2NT.

It is wrong on your partners part to blame you for not raising hearts. A bid of 3H on your cards is a horrendous bid to say the least.

A slam is not that good a proposition as you need a heart finesse and break plus either a spade Jack dropping or 3-3 break or club King in position.Rarely a throw in with the last spade may work if that opponent also holds the club King.

[GrahamJson]

Assuming you have no specific agreement to the contrary a 2NT rebid by responder is a second negative, so can’t be used here as you have good values opposite a 2C opener. As the bidding went, why not rebid 3NT over the 3S raise? It seems to describe the hand well. However, going back a round, what’s the point of playing Puppet if you don’t rebid 2NT on hands such as West’s?

[PhilG007]

[hv=pc=n&w=sak8hakj86datca43&e=sqt63h43dk63cq986&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=2cp2dp2hp2sp3sp4sppp]266|200|2 diamonds shows no Ace at most 1 king[/hv]

 

Partner and I disagree on the bidding.

 

West says I should have raised hearts and 2♠ shows 5 spades.

 

 

I east don't agree .

 

Also would 2NT be a better bid than 2♠ or 2 hearts?

We play puppet stayman so west could still show the 5 card Heart suit.

 

Thank you

I don't agree with East's 2♦ response. 7 pts is enough for a 'positive' reply and thus

East should respond 2NT The only downside of this is that East will become declarer in 3NT(the only sensible contract)and the lead

will come through the strong hand instead of up to it. East cannot support hearts with only a doubleton

and while 2 spades is feasible,it is not a consummation devoutly to be wished. 2NT is the preferred choice because

it also shows stoppers in the black suits.

[gordontd]

I don't agree with East's 2♦ response. 7 pts is enough for a 'positive' reply and thus

East should respond 2NT The only downside of this is that East will become declarer in 3NT(the only sensible contract)and the lead

will come through the strong hand instead of up to it.

That's one of the reasons that 2D is a better response.

[GrahamJson]

That's one of the reasons that 2D is a better response.

 

Is it? With honours in three suits there is no grea5 advantage in having the stronger hand play. A 2NT response looks fine to me, if it is part of your methods. It has the advantage of showing the general nature and strength of your hand with a single bid, which is no bad thing. The trouble with these 2D “waiting” Bids is that it can be difficult to catch up later and show you have useful values.

[dickiegera]

Is it? With honours in three suits there is no grea5 advantage in having the stronger hand play. A 2NT response looks fine to me, if it is part of your methods. It has the advantage of showing the general nature and strength of your hand with a single bid, which is no bad thing. The trouble with these 2D “waiting” Bids is that it can be difficult to catch up later and show you have useful values.

 

 

WE play controls where 2♦

shows 1 control or 0 controls.

2NT shows 3 controls [3 kings]

[gordontd]

Is it? With honours in three suits there is no grea5 advantage in having the stronger hand play. A 2NT response looks fine to me, if it is part of your methods. It has the advantage of showing the general nature and strength of your hand with a single bid, which is no bad thing. The trouble with these 2D “waiting” Bids is that it can be difficult to catch up later and show you have useful values.

The most common rebid after a 2D response is 2NT, and I think it's easier to deal with the continuations using your normal 2NT responses framework, rather than trying to look for a fit after a 2NT response.

[Tramticket]

A 2NT response looks fine to me, if it is part of your methods.

 

It isn't just that a 2NT wrong-sides the contract. The hand is quite a bit under-strength for a positive response on a flat and ace-less seven count.

 

But the big problem is that this response will get in the way if partner wants to show his suits. This will be a real problem if the 2♣ bidder has a two-suited (or three-suited!) hand and has to show the second suit at the four-level. You have taken away the room needed to investigate a slam and have already gone past 3NT if that happened to be the best contract.

[miamijd]

West ought to rebid 2NT, not 2H. You should then have methods over 2NT to find your 5/3 major fits (i.e., some form of Puppet Stayman). It's much easier to bid accurately after a 2NT rebid than after a 2H rebid.

 

Over 2H, East should bid 2NT. Balanced hand with some stoppers, fewer than 3 hearts, and 0-1 controls. Seems like that's what you have. I don't mind 2S with four of them on certain hands, but in this case you have a better bid.

 

But the upshot here is that you should almost always rebid 2NT, not 2M, with 5332 and a 22-23 hand. And you should consider playing Kokish relays, so that you can show the 24-25 balanced hand and still stay at the 2NT level, so that you have your methods on.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[ahydra]

It isn't just that a 2NT wrong-sides the contract. The hand is quite a bit under-strength for a positive response on a flat and ace-less seven count.

 

But the big problem is that this response will get in the way if partner wants to show his suits. This will be a real problem if the 2♣ bidder has a two-suited (or three-suited!) hand and has to show the second suit at the four-level. You have taken away the room needed to investigate a slam and have already gone past 3NT if that happened to be the best contract.

 

This, absolutely. I've recently been playing in a flurry of one-off partnerships and insist on defining 2C-2NT as "does not exist" (I think on one CC I put "asking for a new partner" !) for the reasons Tramticket gives above. 2M, 3m = natural, positive, good suit; otherwise, bid 2D.

 

ahydra

[neilkaz]

For me, 2C-2NT when 2NT is natural doesn't exist when I can insist it doesn't.

 

To the OP, you'd have shortened this thread and gotten us to the point much quicker had you indicated your control response methods with considerably more detail initially.

 

To your PD, well your PD is on my list to be replaced due to his insistence that you should raise 2♥ directly with 2 low spots. Also, I have to ask him why Puppet is on the card? Did he upgrade his prime hand so much he thought it was too good for 2C-2D(0-1 control) 2NT?

 

You're at fault also. If you bid 2♠ you need to assume that PD will raise here with 3 card support and then offer him a choice of games with 3NT.

 

If you bid 2NT instead of 2♠ that's OK also as you stop every suit and may even enjoy having the lead come to you. With that in mind I slightly prefer 2NT as your 2nd call.