Howell movement

[dickiegera]

Playing 12 pair Howell movement pair 11 stays at table 2 all nite.

 

However they play N/S part of the time and E/W part of the time. When switching from N/S to E/W pair 11 usually just turns the table card.

 

We have had problem with scores being posted the wrong direction while using bridgemates.

 

Director has said that at table 2 pair 11 must change seats rather than turn the table card.

 

I agree with this however I am wondering if there is any thing in the rules about this.

 

Thank you

[WellSpyder]

Law 5B

Players change their initial compass direction or proceed to another table in accordance with the Director’s instructions.

The Director is responsible for clear announcement of instructions; each player is responsible for moving when and as directed and for occupying the correct seat after each change.

[Vampyr]

Playing 12 pair Howell movement pair 11 stays at table 2 all nite.

 

However they play N/S part of the time and E/W part of the time. When switching from N/S to E/W pair 11 usually just turns the table card.

 

We have had problem with scores being posted the wrong direction while using bridgemates.

 

Director has said that at table 2 pair 11 must change seats rather than turn the table card.

 

I agree with this however I am wondering if there is any thing in the rules about this.

 

Thank you

 

The table card is a thing that goes in the centre of the table and shows who is who, right? Perhaps the players sitting at the stationary table should just be instructed to put the Bridgemate in front of whichever player is going to be North. If N/S always enter the score, there should not be much of a problem. Or...if the confusion lies only with Pair 11, maybe their opponents, who presumably managed at all the other tables, should always score. I don't see how switching seats instead of turning the indicator would solve the problem.

[barmar]

I don't see how switching seats instead of turning the indicator would solve the problem.

The problem is apparently that when rotating the table card, they forget to move the bridgemate along with it. If the pair moves and leaves the bridgemate in its place, this is less likely to happen.

 

As I understand it, the bridgemate software has an option to warn the director about likely absurd contracts, like a table where EW are playing in the suit that every other table is playing NS. This is designed to catch errors like this. Also, if you have to enter the opening lead, it can warn if the player who is supposedly on lead doesn't possess that card.

 

A simple solution: be more careful about who you seat at table 2.

[axman]

The problem is apparently that when rotating the table card, they forget to move the bridgemate along with it. If the pair moves and leaves the bridgemate in its place, this is less likely to happen.

 

As I understand it, the bridgemate software has an option to warn the director about likely absurd contracts, like a table where EW are playing in the suit that every other table is playing NS. This is designed to catch errors like this. Also, if you have to enter the opening lead, it can warn if the player who is supposedly on lead doesn't possess that card.

 

A simple solution: be more careful about who you seat at table 2.

 

I have seen bridgemate discussions where posting an incorrect OL can be used to find out if leader has, or has not, a particular card.

[BudH]

In ACBLscore, you can fix the score(s) by using F11 --> EDMOV -- > Edit one cell, select round and table, the switched pair numbers (which likely will default to that), they change N to Y for partial round if it's only one board. Then Escape and Save.

[Vampyr]

A simple solution: be more careful about who you seat at table 2.

 

I was thinking this too!

 

I have seen bridgemate discussions where posting an incorrect OL can be used to find out if leader has, or has not, a particular card.

 

So what? You can ask to see his hand and find out every particular card he had.

 

The trouble is that if you put it an incorrect opening lead, that card may happen to have been held by the "wrong" opening leader, not solving the problem of people not knowing how to properly operate the Bridgemate.

[gordontd]

I have seen bridgemate discussions where posting an incorrect OL can be used to find out if leader has, or has not, a particular card.

I've seen it in discussion but not in reality, for the simple reason that it's not indicated until the score has been agreed. So, you would need to start explaining to the TD how you come to put in scores with incorrect leads and prematurely accept them yourselves 50% of the time.

[weejonnie]

I've seen it in discussion but not in reality, for the simple reason that it's not indicated until the score has been agreed. So, you would need to start explaining to the TD how you come to put in scores with incorrect leads and prematurely accept them yourselves 50% of the time.

Well - probably 25% of the time - unless you are very good you won't know what card partner is looking for - and even if you did you would have to be able to pass the information over to him/ her. I suspect defenders would smell a rat if you kept passing the bridgemate between you.

[barmar]

I've seen it in discussion but not in reality, for the simple reason that it's not indicated until the score has been agreed. So, you would need to start explaining to the TD how you come to put in scores with incorrect leads and prematurely accept them yourselves 50% of the time.

At our club we use BridgeTab, which is software for Android tablets. I think it will report the erroneous lead as soon as it's entered, not when agreeing the score, so maybe that's what prompted the discussion.

 

I suppose you could find out opening leader's entire hand by entering every card you don't see in dummy and your own hand, then cancelling, but someone might eventually get suspicious when it takes you 5+ minutes to enter the opening lead.

[Vampyr]

At our club we use BridgeTab, which is software for Android tablets. I think it will report the erroneous lead as soon as it's entered, not when agreeing the score, so maybe that's what prompted the discussion.

 

I suppose you could find out opening leader's entire hand by entering every card you don't see in dummy and your own hand, then cancelling, but someone might eventually get suspicious when it takes you 5+ minutes to enter the opening lead.

 

BRidge Tab sounds pretty poor.

[pran]

At our club we use BridgeTab, which is software for Android tablets. I think it will report the erroneous lead as soon as it's entered, not when agreeing the score, so maybe that's what prompted the discussion.

 

I suppose you could find out opening leader's entire hand by entering every card you don't see in dummy and your own hand, then cancelling, but someone might eventually get suspicious when it takes you 5+ minutes to enter the opening lead.

BRidge Tab sounds pretty poor.

If it really is (at all) possible to investigate like this then the program should be prohibited from use.

The scoring device should accept whatever lead card is entered without any question or remark.

Some sort of a notification (subsequent to end of play) that there has been an irregularity is of course in order.

[StevenG]

BRidge Tab sounds pretty poor.

The tablets are big enough that if anyone tried a stunt like that, both opponents would see.

[pran]

The tablets are big enough that if anyone tried a stunt like that, both opponents would see.

That is no defense for the system.

The information entered must not reveal anything about the deal until play is ended.

(Example: "The lead card entered seems incorrect" is such an error with the device)

[sfi]

The tablets are big enough that if anyone tried a stunt like that, both opponents would see.

 

There are any number of times when I can simply misclick and get useful information. I'm in 3NT and LHO leads the D3. I enter the lead as the D2, which gives me a 100% play to find out opener's diamond length. It's hard to stop people from doing that by accident, and I'm sure some will do it on purpose.

[StevenG]

I'm not sure if people commenting have seen BridgeTabs. It's not using a BridgeMate. Firstly it's a 7-inch tablet flat on the table, which means the screen can be seen by East and West (and South, if his/her eyesight is good enough). Secondly, each part of the entry process is on a separate screen. You enter the contract with a large button for each possible undoubled contract, plus separate buttons for doubled and redoubled. The next screen gives a display of the table layout, and you click on the name of the person playing the contract. Then the screen for entering the lead is again 52 large buttons. Of course it's possible to press the wrong button. In practice I'm not seeing it happen.

 

The only time I'm seeing the wrong lead message come up when it's entered directly after the lead is made is when the wrong declarer has been entered. In which case, it's still the correct card and provides no useful information. There are plenty of these messages, of course, when the lead isn't entered until after the contract has been played and nobody can remember which spot card it was.

 

A further safeguard in my club is that EBUScore gives a pop-up warning message on the computer whenever an incorrect lead is entered. (Other scoring programs may not. Scorebridge doesn't, for example.) In practice this is just ignored, unfortunately, as the playing score just swears and removes them.

 

I appreciate people have concerns, but in practice anyone trying to cheat by using this function wouldn't get very far.

[pran]

I'm not sure if people commenting have seen BridgeTabs. It's not using a BridgeMate. Firstly it's a 7-inch tablet flat on the table, which means the screen can be seen by East and West (and South, if his/her eyesight is good enough). Secondly, each part of the entry process is on a separate screen. You enter the contract with a large button for each possible undoubled contract, plus separate buttons for doubled and redoubled. The next screen gives a display of the table layout, and you click on the name of the person playing the contract. Then the screen for entering the lead is again 52 large buttons. Of course it's possible to press the wrong button. In practice I'm not seeing it happen.

 

The only time I'm seeing the wrong lead message come up when it's entered directly after the lead is made is when the wrong declarer has been entered. In which case, it's still the correct card and provides no useful information. There are plenty of these messages, of course, when the lead isn't entered until after the contract has been played and nobody can remember which spot card it was.

 

A further safeguard in my club is that EBUScore gives a pop-up warning message on the computer whenever an incorrect lead is entered. (Other scoring programs may not. Scorebridge doesn't, for example.) In practice this is just ignored, unfortunately, as the playing score just swears and removes them.

 

I appreciate people have concerns, but in practice anyone trying to cheat by using this function wouldn't get very far.

It is not a relevant question how far they would get or whether a signal is given on the central computer.

The very possibility (by accident or on purpose) to obtain such information is completely unacceptable.

[barmar]

The very possibility (by accident or on purpose) to obtain such information is completely unacceptable.

If he's worried about this, the TD can turn off the requirement to enter the opening lead. The problem with delaying the warning until accepting the score is that players are likely to forget what the opening lead was.

[pran]

If he's worried about this, the TD can turn off the requirement to enter the opening lead. The problem with delaying the warning until accepting the score is that players are likely to forget what the opening lead was.

He should indeed be worried.

But I do not really understand that this situation can occur at all, it appears to me as evidence of an unforgivable incompetent system designer?

 

I have had and used the Bridgemate scoring system since 1991, our routine is that North manages the terminal and enter:

1: The board number (before cards are removed from the board) - possible message: "This board is not scheduled at this table for this round"

2: The contract (immediately following the closing pass) - no message is ever given

3: The opening lead (immediately as faced) - no message is ever given

4: The number of tricks won - The terminal displays the calculated score and a request for confirmation by East/West.

 

If the opening lead is incorrectly entered (yes, that happens) nobody really worries - it has no legal effect.

 

But if a player approaches me and claims that the incorrect declarer has been registered and his claim is not corroborated by the registered opening lead then he will have to provide more evidence of such an error than when the opening lead is correctly registered.

 

Most players are aware of this and tend to be careful with their registrations, also of opening leads.

[gordontd]

 

I have had and used the Bridgemate scoring system since 1991,

Really? My first encounter with it was much more recent than that. Do you perhaps mean 2001?

[axman]

He should indeed be worried.

But I do not really understand that this situation can occur at all, it appears to me as evidence of an unforgivable incompetent system designer?

 

I have had and used the Bridgemate scoring system since 1991, our routine is that North manages the terminal and enter:

1: The board number (before cards are removed from the board) - possible message: "This board is not scheduled at this table for this round"

2: The contract (immediately following the closing pass) - no message is ever given

3: The opening lead (immediately as faced) - no message is ever given

4: The number of tricks won - The terminal displays the calculated score and a request for confirmation by East/West.

 

If the opening lead is incorrectly entered (yes, that happens) nobody really worries - it has no legal effect.

 

But if a player approaches me and claims that the incorrect declarer has been registered and his claim is not corroborated by the registered opening lead then he will have to provide more evidence of such an error than when the opening lead is correctly registered.

 

Most players are aware of this and tend to be careful with their registrations, also of opening leads.

 

WHat has occurred to me is that an OLOOT (for instance, accepted) w©ould be 'misconstrued' by the computer to be from the 'wrong hand'.

[pran]

Really? My first encounter with it was much more recent than that. Do you perhaps mean 2001?

Sorry, you are right.

I mixed up my acquisition of computerized card dealing systems and Bridgemate. The latter took place in 2006.

[Vampyr]

If he's worried about this, the TD can turn off the requirement to enter the opening lead. The problem with delaying the warning until accepting the score is that players are likely to forget what the opening lead was.

 

So turn over any card in the opening leader's hand and enter it.

[barmar]

So turn over any card in the opening leader's hand and enter it.

Yeah, or just ignore the error.

 

I guess the potential for abuse didn't occur to the designer. As a computer programmer for many decades, I know that it's common to make decisions that improve ease of use, and not realize the unintended consequences.

 

In general, BridgeTab is really nice, much easier to use than BridgeMate or BridgePad. Nothing's perfect. It would be really impractical to use this particular flaw to find out about more than 1 card in opener's hand. About the best I can think of is that if they lead a King, you could find out if it's from AK or KQ by misentering A. Or if they lead a suit where you have a finesse situation in dummy, and North is declarer, they could check for the card in the slot.

[BudH]

I have seen bridgemate discussions where posting an incorrect OL can be used to find out if leader has, or has not, a particular card.

 

You are correct. We had a player at my local club mention this to me and how you could do it when opening leads are recorded and hand records are uploaded to the Bridgemates. You can do it only if (1) your opponents are not paying attention to the number of extra keystrokes and (2) the Bridgemates are set to allow players to self correct a result without Director input/presence.

 

Example: It is the first board of the round and I am North in a 7S contract and dummy comes down with the trump queen the only possible loser. I enter into the Bridgemate 7SN, opening lead SQ, making 7 and confirm as if I was East. If no error message occurs, then I know East has the spade queen. I then correct this board, deleting that result, and proceed to play 7S finessing East for the SQ for 13 tricks.