how to bid

[patroclo]

[hv=pc=n&s=sk6ha742dq53cat86&w=st94hjt3dt7ck9753&n=saq852hkq65dak94c&e=sj73h98dj862cqj42&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1cp2s]399|300[/hv]

At my table the bidding was 1c. 2s. 2nt. 3d. 3nt. pass

[johnu]

Playing strong jump shifts, I would never bid 2♠. The suit isn't good enough, there's no major fit for clubs, and hearts or diamonds may be the best trump suit which probably can't be found after a jump shift in spades.

 

A simple 1♠ response lets you investigate other contracts.

[MrAce]

Playing strong jump shifts, I would never bid 2♠. The suit isn't good enough, there's no major fit for clubs, and hearts or diamonds may be the best trump suit which probably can't be found after a jump shift in spades.

 

A simple 1♠ response lets you investigate other contracts.

 

This!

[LBengtsson]

not 2♠, 1♠. new minor force or 2♦ as gf by responder after 1♣ - 1♠ - 1NT - 2♦ and opener bids 2♥ and 4/4 fit found

[Cyberyeti]

Only REALLY bad players bid 2♠ on this sort of hand. We play a weak no trump, but adapting our methods to strong NT, we would bid:

 

1♣-1♠

1N-2♣(checkback)

2♥-4♣(voidwood, 3♣ would be forcing)

4♥(1)-4N(I have 2 of ♠AKQ, do you have the other)

6♣(yes and ♣A)-6♦(I don't quite have enough to bid grand, any help in diamonds, I have 2 of AKQ)

7♥

[gszes]

The idea of a strong jump shift is to accomplish 2 things. first is to convey great power and 2n is to give the partnership a safe haven at the game level in case slam aspirations do not pan out. The N hand has more than enough power for a strong jump shift but the spade suit is a far cry from what it needs to be for the second consideration to be met. The suit quality should be such that there is at most 1 loser in the suit opposite a small singleton. KQJTxx should be pretty much the minimum standard

for such a bid. The jump shift takes up a LOT of room and so the message should be quite strong. Do not waste space jumping around when the partnership has no clue what strain is the best much less how high.

 

Back to the bidding after 2s I would bid 3h with the south hand rather than 2n with that speculative dia holding. This bid does not promise radical distribution merely takes time to point out a potential flaw in the argument for playing NT. With more radical distribution I would easily choose 3c over 2h.

[steve2005]

Playing strong jump shifts, I would never bid 2♠. The suit isn't good enough, there's no major fit for clubs, and hearts or diamonds may be the best trump suit which probably can't be found after a jump shift in spades.

 

A simple 1♠ response lets you investigate other contracts.

it is considered bad to js on 2-suiter never mind this 3-suiter with a void in partner's suit.

So even if better still would be wrong to js.

 

 

[iandayre]

2S was an atrocity. I like strong JS but only using the Soloway method. I suggest you learn and implement it.

[iandayre]

Delete duplicate

[PhilG007]

Looking at the N/S hands 6♥ is feasible but how to bid it?

Difficult after a 1♠response,almost impossible after a 2♠ reply.

[Joe_Old]

I don't like the 2♠ bid either. But, the last chance to salvage the deal was that 3NT call. Why not 3♥? Hopefully North will take it as a suit (partner, do you want to play a 4-3 fit? Was 3 diamonds intended to be NMF?). It's still an awful auction.

[Winstonm]

1C-1S

1N-2D (x,y,z)

2N-3H

4H-4S

5C-5D

5S-6D

6H-p

[pescetom]

1C-1S

1N-2D (x,y,z)

2N-3H

4H.....

 

As I understand XYZ, 2D is a game force requiring opener to continue to describe.

What would be wrong with a natural 2H reply instead of 2NT?

[Winstonm]

As I understand XYZ, 2D is a game force requiring opener to continue to describe.

What would be wrong with a natural 2H reply instead of 2NT?

 

I think 2H is OK - I considered it - but the hand is so perfectly NT-ish with cards in every suit, that 2N seems to me a better call.

[Stephen Tu]

I think 2H is OK - I considered it - but the hand is so perfectly NT-ish with cards in every suit, that 2N seems to me a better call.

 

This is insane. 2H is the systemic call. It allows you to agree hearts at the 3 level, forcing, allowing cue bidding room, which is hugely useful. If you bid 2nt, responder is supposed to proceed under the assumption that you DON'T have 4 hearts, or 3 spades, and will look for diamond fit not heart fit. Future heart bids should be interpreted as cues, not length.

 

You already made a call that described your hand as NT-ish: 1nt!!

[Winstonm]

This is insane. 2H is the systemic call. It allows you to agree hearts at the 3 level, forcing, allowing cue bidding room, which is hugely useful. If you bid 2nt, responder is supposed to proceed under the assumption that you DON'T have 4 hearts, or 3 spades, and will look for diamond fit not heart fit. Future heart bids should be interpreted as cues, not length.

 

You already made a call that described your hand as NT-ish: 1nt!!

 

Don't hold back. Tell us what you really think. ;)

 

As for me, I like to differentiate in this auction between Kx, Axxx, xxx, AQxx - which would be 2H, and Kx, Axxx, Qxx A10xx.

 

Not only are we trying to bid slams but also trying to find the right game when partner holds: AQJxx, Kxx, xx, KQx.

[Stephen Tu]

Don't hold back. Tell us what you really think. ;)

 

As for me, I like to differentiate in this auction between Kx, Axxx, xxx, AQxx - which would be 2H, and Kx, Axxx, Qxx A10xx.

 

Not only are we trying to bid slams but also trying to find the right game when partner holds: AQJxx, Kxx, xx, KQx.

 

I don't see how bidding 2nt helps you in this endeavor. 2nt robs you of significant bidding space. If you bid 2H, responder can bid 2s or 2nt, then subsequently bid suits as stoppers implying worry about diamonds, or bid 3d showing like half a stopper. Opener might also decline to bid 2nt over 2s holding just xxx in diamonds. If you bid 2nt, responder has fewer choices to work with, and can't:

- distinguish between 5 spades/6 spades, no longer having choice of 2s / 3s

- have 3h show a FIFTH heart, 5-5 shape which people might assume on your auction without prior discussion.

- bid 3h showing worry about diamonds when only holding a heart fragment, since you might raise

- bid 3c with just club honors, not length in clubs since normally this shows 4, 5+ clubs and looking for 4s/5c/6c.

[xbabarx]

Playing strong jump shift, after p 2s I would bid 3H to show 4 cards Heart suit but no 3 s

[apollo1201]

Am I the only one to believe that after the atrocious 2S bis, S with 2 Aces and Kx facing the supposedly semi-sufficient suit of partner should just fit and let things go from there?

Even 7S make.

[Winstonm]

I don't see how bidding 2nt helps you in this endeavor. 2nt robs you of significant bidding space. If you bid 2H, responder can bid 2s or 2nt, then subsequently bid suits as stoppers implying worry about diamonds, or bid 3d showing like half a stopper. Opener might also decline to bid 2nt over 2s holding just xxx in diamonds. If you bid 2nt, responder has fewer choices to work with, and can't:

- distinguish between 5 spades/6 spades, no longer having choice of 2s / 3s

- have 3h show a FIFTH heart, 5-5 shape which people might assume on your auction without prior discussion.

- bid 3h showing worry about diamonds when only holding a heart fragment, since you might raise

- bid 3c with just club honors, not length in clubs since normally this shows 4, 5+ clubs and looking for 4s/5c/6c.

 

That's certainly possible. The issue to me, though, is that partner's bid asks for 3-card support or, lacking that, a further clarification of your hand. The only decision to make is in how to describe the hand. This really is an issue of shape versus holdings - shape, as you use it, may be better - but it is not the only method.

[kenberg]

Well, when there is a 4-4 heart fit and one hand has a void, it seems that someone at some point should bid hearts.

 

In the Soloway style of jump shifts, as played for example by the bots, it is impossible to find the hearts after the 2S bid. But nobody, including me, likes the 2S bid. So suppose it starts 1C-1S -1NT, a reasonable beginning. Now the problem is, as it so often is on bbo, that probably the partnership has not discussed much of anything about what now means what. If we are playing 2 way nmf after 1NT, or x-y-z, then 2D is an artificial game force. Opener should now describe his hand. He has four hearts, he does not have three spades, the description is straightforward, he bids 2H. He has already described his hand as fairly balanced and presumably 12-14 highs, his partner has asked for a further description, so he gives it. Now some play that with three spades and four hearts opener first shows the three spades, some play that he first shows the four hearts. I have a slight preference for first showing the hearts, but my real preference is for knowing which it is that we are doing.

 

After responder learns of the 4-4 heart fit it is basically up to him to select how high they go.

 

If the pair is playing standard nmf rather than 2-way then 2D is still artificial and the response is still 2H, but we are not yet in a game force. It would be good to have agreements here as to what happens next. The hands fit very well and the hearts break 3-2 so it makes 7H. But only experts, maybe not even experts, can find out about the fitting spade K, the fitting diamond Q, and the club A for pitching the long diamond. And no bidding system uncovers the fact that the hearts are splitting. But after 1C - 1S - 1NT - 2D - 2H it should not be that tough for responder to choose 6H, maybe just by jumping to 6H.

[ggwhiz]

Given this is the Intermediate/Advanced forum I think the real point is the difference between a 1♠ and 2♠ response.

 

It goes against the grain to bid low and slow with such a powerhouse but that is exactly what you must do and not just with this one because of the many possibilities of strain.

 

Just make forcing bids (which 1♠ is) and gather clues. If opener rebids 1nt, then you can decide on system, ie. some kind of checkback, xyz, whatever. If they bid something else, know what is forcing next, ie. a jump to 3♥.

 

Strain first, level second is the principle violated by the 2♠ bid here. My partnership does play this bid as strong but specifically showing a suit that will play for 1 loser (well 99%) opposite a stiff petunia satisfying strain concerns.

 

Good quality spades plus clubs or Soloway JS are also popular but also cater to strain first, at least to be determined in the nearest possible future.

[pescetom]

I think 2H is OK - I considered it - but the hand is so perfectly NT-ish with cards in every suit, that 2N seems to me a better call.

Thanks. 7N does indeed make ;) But my partner would certainly expect me to show the hearts and would be happy to raise them and start cue-bidding at the ideal level.

Our bidding would probably go:

1C - 1S

1N - 2D

2H - 3H

3S - 3N

4C - 4D

4H - 4S

4N - 6H

P

where 3N shows another control in S and 4N shows an even number of keycards.

[Cyberyeti]

Thanks. 7N does indeed make ;) But my partner would certainly expect me to show the hearts and would be happy to raise them and start cue-bidding at the ideal level.

Our bidding would probably go:

1C - 1S

1N - 2D

2H - 3H

3S - 3N

4C - 4D

4H - 4S

4N - 6H

P

where 3N shows another control in S and 4N shows an even number of keycards.

 

Yup, 7N is a terrible contract, 7♥ is very decent but < 70% so not 100% clear you want to be in it, but I think I would want to be.

[FelicityR]

Yup, 7N is a terrible contract, 7♥ is very decent but < 70% so not 100% clear you want to be in it, but I think I would want to be.

 

I read somewhere, a long time ago, that grand slams should be bid on a 75%+ basis. Though if you bid a grand on a 4-4 fit, you deserve the trumps to behave.