bidding a long suit

[Zelandakh]

I suggest opening 4n

 

This is a straight blackwood since there is no agreed trump suit.

I would suggest to you that for a rather large portion of the player base this is in fact a specific ace ask. That arguably makes it more appealing than ordinary Blackwood but I think you are experienced enough not to be making claims such as the quote above.

[Left2Right]

Contrary to the assertion that "there is no way to bid this scientifically;" there actually is: the Schenken 2♦ convention. (1)

 

The auction proceeds as follows.

 

[hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=2dp2sp3cp3np6hppp]133|100|[/hv]

 

2♦: Game Forcing, ace asking, usually a bizarre one-suiter.

2♠: Spade ace and no other ace.

3♣: King ask.

3N: Club king and no other king.

 

Yes, we sometimes have to hearken back to ancient history so we don't repeat the failures of the past. And, yes, of course you'll have to decide whether the easy handling of bizarre hands like this is a better trade-off than whatever currently occupies the 2♦ slot on your convention card.

 

In addition to the little tome shown in the citation below, the first round of the convention is reproduced here.

 

 

 

1. Howard Schenken's Big Club. Simon and Schuster. 1968. LOC 68-25753. p. 134.

[miamijd]

I don't mean to be flippant, but how many times in your life are you going to get a ten-bagger? I've been playing 40+ years and I've never had one yet.

 

Don't worry about these hands. They never come up and no one really knows how to bid them.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[Cyberyeti]

I don't mean to be flippant, but how many times in your life are you going to get a ten-bagger? I've been playing 40+ years and I've never had one yet.

 

Don't worry about these hands. They never come up and no one really knows how to bid them.

 

Cheers,

Mike

 

Have held 3, 10111/10210/10300.

[Cyberyeti]

Contrary to the assertion that "there is no way to bid this scientifically;" there actually is: the Schenken 2♦ convention. (1)

 

The auction proceeds as follows.

 

[hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=2dp2sp3cp3np6hppp]133|100|[/hv]

 

2♦: Game Forcing, ace asking, usually a bizarre one-suiter.

2♠: Spade ace and no other ace.

3♣: King ask.

3N: Club king and no other king.

 

Yes, we sometimes have to hearken back to ancient history so we don't repeat the failures of the past. And, yes, of course you'll have to decide whether the easy handling of bizarre hands like this is a better trade-off than whatever currently occupies the 2♦ slot on your convention card.

 

In addition to the little tome shown in the citation below, the first round of the convention is reproduced here.

 

 

 

1. Howard Schenken's Big Club. Simon and Schuster. 1968. LOC 68-25753. p. 134.

 

Yeah and how well does it work when the next hand bids 3♠ or 4♦ ?

[GrahamJson]

In “Practical Bidding and Practical Play” Terrence Reece asks what the best opening bid would be if holding all 13 clubs. He rated 4C as the best bid, as if you then compete higher you may eventually be allowed to play there. He points out that even 5C+2 scores better than defending a seven level contract going minus one or two. He admits it was a fanciful question but uses it to illustrate the best approach when holding a freak hand, such as an extreme two suiter with a fit with partner. He recommends going slowly so that your later bids are plausible. Taking his advice perhaps the best opening on this hand is 3H in the hope that you will eventually be allowed to play at the four or five level.

 

Looking at other suggestions, the one that appeals least is 2C. This runs the extreme rick that partner will take you for a more balanced hand, stronger in high cards, and will bid some large number of spades, or diamonds, or even NT.

[msjennifer]

This is a matter of the rules, that are in place, sometimes it will be allowed,

sometimes not.

You have certainly a 10 trick hand, i.e. a gameforcing hand, on the other hand, it

is low on HCP, for that matter it is also pretty low on defence.

 

The suggested seq.

 

2C - 2D

4H - 6H

 

works, ... although the diamond void was never shown, make it a spade void, you are off

2 cashing Aces, they still need to collect them, which may or may not be an easy task.

 

There are system, that show you strong 1-suited hands, Namyats (3NT / 4C / 4D opening)

to show something like this,... but you have a 10 card suit, and a void, ...,

If you open on the 4 level, it will be hard for partner to go on, the given partner hand wont.

If you cant stand a missed slam go for it, but than refrain from asking, how to avoid reaching

the slam with 2 missing cashing Aces.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

I have given my sequence where I said I shall open this as 2 C.And also given the further bidding in my earlier post.

[msjennifer]

Were you at the table then? I do not see a 6♥-1 under portia's hand record history.

Sir,my answers are for the OP and no one else.No one else can ask me anything .The OP May ask me whatever he wants but no one else.And We English are polite.

[msjennifer]

Contrary to the assertion that "there is no way to bid this scientifically;" there actually is: the Schenken 2♦ convention. (1)

 

The auction proceeds as follows.

 

[hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=2dp2sp3cp3np6hppp]133|100|[/hv]

 

2♦: Game Forcing, ace asking, usually a bizarre one-suiter.

2♠: Spade ace and no other ace.

3♣: King ask.

3N: Club king and no other king.

 

Yes, we sometimes have to hearken back to ancient history so we don't repeat the failures of the past. And, yes, of course you'll have to decide whether the easy handling of bizarre hands like this is a better trade-off than whatever currently occupies the 2♦ slot on your convention card.

 

In addition to the little tome shown in the citation below, the first round of the convention is reproduced here.

 

 

 

1. Howard Schenken's Big Club. Simon and Schuster. 1968. LOC 68-25753. p. 134.

Sir,thanks for supplying his information.The sequence is exceptionally good.IYou have suddenly evoked my interest in the theories proposed by Howard Schenken.

[GrahamJson]

You can construct a similar auction playing old fashioned Acol:

 

2C 2D

3H 3S (3H sets the suit, 3S shows the ace)

4C 4NT (Club ask, 4NT shows the king)

6H

 

Or you can have a similar auction one level higher if you choose to respond 3C rather than 2D.

 

However, I still believe that it is wrong to open with a game forcing bid on this hand, despite the obvious ten tricks. It is just too likely that partner will misread the situation and place too much value on honours in spades and diamonds.

[GrahamJson]

You can construct a similar auction playing old fashioned Acol:

 

2C 2D

3H 3S (3H sets the suit, 3S shows the ace)

4C 4NT (Club ask, 4NT shows the king)

6H

 

Or you can have a similar auction one level higher if you choose to respond 3C rather than 2D.

 

However, I still believe that it is wrong to open with a game forcing bid on this hand, despite the obvious ten tricks. It is just too likely that partner will misread the situation and place too much value on honours in spades and diamonds.

[GrahamJson]

You can construct a similar auction playing old fashioned Acol:

 

2C 2D

3H 3S (3H sets the suit, 3S shows the ace)

4C 4NT (Club ask, 4NT shows the king)

6H

 

Or you can have a similar auction one level higher if you choose to respond 3C rather than 2D.

 

However, I still believe that it is wrong to open with a game forcing bid on this hand, despite the obvious ten tricks. It is just too likely that partner will misread the situation and place too much value on honours in spades and diamonds.

[aawk]

First I would call the director because you hold only 12 cards. If it was actually a 10 card I open 2♣ because its a game forcing hand after a 2♦ relay from partner I jump to 3♥ (showing long ♥ no trump support needed) followed by cue bids.

[Vampyr]

Yeah and how well does it work when the next hand bids 3♠ or 4♦ ?

 

Yes, these posts about how the auction will go when they open at the two level are so sweet and naive.

[StevenG]

Yes, these posts about how the auction will go when they open at the two level are so sweet and naive.

First in hand, there's always the possibility that partner has significant strength and opps don't have a lot. That aside, I'd still prefer to try for a constructive auction by opening 1♥ and improvising after interference. Of course, being in EBUland, I'm not allowed to open this with an artificial strong bid.

[Zelandakh]

First in hand, there's always the possibility that partner has significant strength and opps don't have a lot. That aside, I'd still prefer to try for a constructive auction by opening 1♥ and improvising after interference. Of course, being in EBUland, I'm not allowed to open this with an artificial strong bid.

Are you sure?

It is permitted to open (say) 2♣ to show an unspecified long suit that is not clubs under (b)(iv) above. If such an opening may contain (for example) a solid eight card major with little outside this should be clearly described and not called simply, ‘Strong’.

[StevenG]

Are you sure?

No. But I can only do it if I have a well-defined set of agreements that aren't a form of Benji. Which I don't. (I think - there are so many baffling bits in that bit of the Blue Book, I'm still rather bewildered by it all. However my partners only play Benji, and aren't bridge lawyers, so I'm stuck.)

[Vampyr]

No. But I can only do it if I have a well-defined set of agreements that aren't a form of Benji. Which I don't. (I think - there are so many baffling bits in that bit of the Blue Book, I'm still rather bewildered by it all. However my partners only play Benji, and aren't bridge lawyers, so I'm stuck.)

 

I don't think that matters. You can certainly do it if it is not your agreement. Do you have agreements about 10-card suits?

 

And if it is your agreement, it is, as mentioned above, a matter of agreement. Although of course with Axxx, Kx, Axx Jxxx, "Strong" is enough.

[nige1]

.

[0deary]

Dear Santa,

 

Portia has very kindly shown me a 1,10,0,2 shape topped by AKQ. I well remember been dealt with that very hand nearly 20 times during the last million hands I played…

 

In my twenties I just banged 6H. But opps was soon in 6S. Once I tried 7- wrong, partner had super trumps and 6S was down. So the second time I passed- wrong, this time 6S was cold and 7H only cost 500

 

In my thirties I tried 4N. Op rudely bid 5S. But fortunately my partner knew her DOPI/ROPI and passed (showing 1 Ace). But op crudely bid 6S, and I was in the same problem I had in my twenties

 

In my forties I asked about opening 2C. But the Director told me that 2C is a rather special bid, cannot be psyched, and 11 points are way short of when you are announcing a 2C. So it would be wrong to announce 2C this way- its more of a pre-empt hand than a powerhouse

 

In my fifties I had a cunning plan. Pass. Surely someone will open. They did. 6S after a quiet partner: same problem

 

In my sixties I finally realised that what I wanted from Santa is more information. What has partner got and which seat has the spades. So a gentle 1H. Expect a vigorous auction, but sit back and listen. I might not get it right in future either, but at least I might get enough information to decide. 1H-2S-X-4S is different to 1H-4S-p-p or 1H-1S-1NT-4S so reflecting- what others did bid (and what they didn’t) bid should help

 

A lovely hand Porteus, thank you very much for sharing it!

 

My seasons best wishes to all

 

0Deary

[Vampyr]

I don't think that matters. You can certainly do it if it is not your agreement. Do you have agreements about 10-card suits?

 

And if it is your agreement, it is, as mentioned above, a matter of agreement. Although of course with Axxx, Kx, Axx Jxxx, "Strong" is enough.

 

You can also decide that it is a psyche.

[FelicityR]

As others have said, there is no right of bidding this hand. I have looked on Wikipedia and the odds of holding a 10-2-1-0 hand is 0.000011 that means the odds are 1 in 90,909 of holding this shape in the first instance, and as there are four positions at the table I guess that then holding it in first position equates to 1 in 363,636. Personally I'd rather concentrate on the 363,635 hands that are less freakily-shaped.

 

As for holding a solid suit headed by AKQ, I'd let the professor-level statisticians advise you of the correct odds specifically for this hand. By the way, I'd open 4♥ and be prepared to bid again even though pre-empting and bidding again is anathema: on this hand it warrants it.

[gszes]

I would suggest to you that for a rather large portion of the player base this is in fact a specific ace ask. That arguably makes it more appealing than ordinary Blackwood but I think you are experienced enough not to be making claims such as the quote above.

 

intermediate/advanced will normally not have these high level agreements I was clarifying the use of 01234 vs any form of key card. We open this can of worms because IMHO I think a 4n opening should probably be best served with the responses being 1 red 1 black 2 same color 2 different colors 3 with specific K asking bids once we have decided to play slam and wish to search for 7. This would allow the 4n opener (with hands similar to this) to be used with all 4 suits.

[Zelandakh]

intermediate/advanced will normally not have these high level agreements

High level agreement? This was in my first beginner's bridge book on Acol and has, to my knowledge, been in every incarnation of Acol since the original. It is not "high level" in England!!!

[croquetfan]

If you play Kabel 3NT you are part way there but still a little guessing required.

Could go 3NT- 4S- 5H... let partner guess how good the CK is