System for untangling opener's 3-card major suit raises

[Jinksy]

What's a good (and not super complicated) system for untangling sequences such as 1m 1M / 2M, where opener's rebid might be on only 3-card support?

 

 

(I'm sure I posted a thread about this a while ago and got some good answers, but can't find it now - so feel free to just respond with a link to that if you can remember where it is)

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

linking to Bridgewinner may or may not be allowed.

http://bridgewinners.com/article/view/spiral-raises/

 

The alternative use your favourite search engine: Gavin Wolpert Spiral Raises.

It was alos described by Justin Lall, some Blog Entry, but I was not able to

locate the day.

 

If I recall it correctly, it was not too complicated.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[gwnn]

Two options:

 

1. 2NT asks, whereupon opener bids naturally under 3M with 3, or bids 3M+ with four. I like this. If our major is hearts, you should invert 2S/N to let opener bid 2NT showing spades. (say, 4351 after 1D-1H; 2H-2S*; 2N) Note that this implies you do not raise on a 5m3M32 as you'd be out of luck. This is my favorite scheme, it is natural, easy to remember, and helpful.

2. non-forcing 3m game tries (opener passes with 3 cards or evaluates with 4).

3. technically this is an overflow but some people like 2NT asks and then 3CDHS means 3 min-3 max-4 min-4max ("ogust"). I think it's hacky and pointless. But someone will mention it here, it might as well be me.

[Jinksy]

Two options:

 

1. 2NT asks, whereupon opener bids naturally under 3M with 3, or bids 3M+ with four. I like this. If our major is hearts, you should invert 2S/N to let opener bid 2NT showing spades. (say, 4351 after 1D-1H; 2H-2S*; 2N) Note that this implies you do not raise on a 5m3M32 as you'd be out of luck. This is my favorite scheme, it is natural, easy to remember, and helpful.

 

I think this is the one I was trying to remember. But we couldn't figure out obvious continuations. After 1m 1M / 2M 2N, is 3m forcing. If not, what does opener do with a max and only three cards?

 

Also what would 3N, 3S over 2S, and 4m responses to the enquiry show?

[gwnn]

There is no such thing as a min or a max in this case. The idea is that distribution is more helpful than strength (which is quite a narrow range to begin with - opener can bid their second suit and raise with a king or so extra). I learned this from gnasher, if you don't like it, take it up with him. :)

 

the jumps you mentioned would be splinters (for people who like 1m-1M; 3M to be really strong). 3N might be serious, or a non-specific max.

[Jinksy]

Does it have any effect on other game try sequences? What about 1m 1M / 2M 2M+1 / 3m 3M? Is that a GF with 5+ of the suit?

[gwnn]

I haven't given this a lot of thought in fact.. I'd just assume that responder has a 5+card suit and doesn't particularly care about our 3/4 cardedness.

 

Correction about 1m-1M; 2M-2S/N; 3NT:this should be a very notrumpy (perhaps specifically 4M333) maximum raise. This should be the case no matter what the other responses to the relay are IMO.

[Jinksy]

Also, what about 1C 1M / 2M 2N / 3D?

 

Is opener supposed to do that with 3145? If not, what would the sequence mean? (though it sounds like you might not have discussed this either?)

[gwnn]

That is 3145 yes; 3H would be 3415 as well. Worst case scenario, you stop in 3S in a 4-3, which responder needs to be prepared for anyway. Yes, we might be unlucky and miss a club fit if responder 3-4 clubs, but that's the way it goes. At least we gave ourselves a shot, and responder knows opener's hand within a card or so..

[gwnn]

Showing shortnesses and so on (as P_Marlowe linked) could be better than "my" scheme. The argument would go that responder might not care if opener has a 3136 or 3145, but cares much more about the heart shortness. In "my" scheme, opener rebids 3C with either a 3136 or a 3316. On the other hand, you can sign off in more part scores. Shrug. I kind of consider this as an emergency situation, where responder often is very happy to be in game opposite 4 but wants to stop as low as possible opposite 3. I think natural bidding maximises the chances of a safe landing.

[gwnn]

(I'm sure I posted a thread about this a while ago and got some good answers, but can't find it now - so feel free to just respond with a link to that if you can remember where it is)

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/64828-continuations-after-1-plum-p-1m-p-2m/

[gordontd]

Here's a scheme I've used and liked.

[gwnn]

PS you can also combine "my" schemes 1 and 2, and allow responder to offer 3m (opener's suit) if they have 4-card support or 3om if they have a 6-carder themselves. Maybe it's a bit 4-3ophobic, but yes. I don't really see why responder, if they have slam interest, wouldn't want to use the 2NT relay. So why not have everything as natural as possible? #SayNoToGMO

[Zelandakh]

Which scheme to use depends a lot upon what hands are allowed to raise with 3 card support. Gordon's scheme, for example supports raising on 3 with a balanaced hand, which many pairs prefer not to do. The simplest method I know, and one that is perfectly adequate for the majority of pairs, is 3344, which means you bid the first step with 3 card support and a min; the second with 3 and maxn; the third with 4 and min; and the fourth (3M) with 4 card support and a max. Some prefer to switch the middle two responses, making it 3434.

 

There are plenty of more exotic schemes around though. One example (which assumes that Opener cannot have a balanced hand with 3 card support):-

 

1m - 1♠; 2♠ - 2NT

==

3♣ = 3 spades (with shortage)

... - 3♦ = relay (min-1max-0max-trick)

... - ... - 3♥ = 0-1 in om, min

... - ... - 3♠ = 0-1 hearts, min

... - ... - 3NT = singleton in om, max

... - ... - 4♣ = singleton heart, max

... - ... - 4♦ = void in om, max

... - ... - 4♥ = heart void, max

... - ... - 4♠ = trick source in m, max

3♦ = 4 spades, no shortage

... - 3♥ = relay (min, 3max, 4max, trick)

... - ... - 3♠ = min

... - ... - 3NT = 3 in m, max

... - ... - 4♣ = 4-5 in m, max

... - ... - 4♦ = 4♠5m(22), max, trick source in m, control in om

... - ... - 4♥ = 4♠5m(22), max, trick source in m, control in hearts

... - ... - 4♠ = 4♠5m(22), max, trick source in m, QJ or less in both fragment suits

3♥ = 4+ spades, 0-1 in om, min

3♠ = 4+ spades, 0-1 hearts, min

3NT = 4+ spades, singleton in om, max

4♣ = 4+ spades, singleton heart, max

4♦ = 4+ spades, void in om, max

4♥ = 4+ spades, heart void, max

4♠ = 4+ spades, trick source in m, max

--

 

You could of course choose to differentiate between 5 and 6 cards in the minor instead of between a singleton and void for the cases where this applies.

 

There is quite a lot of bidding space in these auctions so the number of feasible solutions is quite high. In essence you just choose the features most important to you and design a structure to show them that is as memorable as possible. If it can also use the same structure for 3♥-4♠ directly over 2NT (or 3♦-4♥ over 2♠ when the major is hearts) as with 3♣ - 3♦ added, as in the scheme above, so much the better.

[ahydra]

If our major is hearts, you should invert 2S/N to let opener bid 2NT showing spades.

 

Does one not just bid 1S rather than making a 3-card raise if holding 43(51)? Or maybe you raise if opener's spades are very poor?

 

ahydra

[awm]

I play the following method:

 

2NT = NF, game interest with four trumps

... Pass = three trumps and min

... 3M = four trumps and min

... 4M = four trumps and max

... all others = 3 trumps and max, as descriptive as possible

 

3M = NF, game interest with five (or more) trumps

 

Others = Natural and GF, often only four cards in major and looking for the best game

... 3M = confirms four-card raise

... 3NT = short/weak in responder's second suit

... others = 3-card raise, as natural as possible

 

When compared to the "2NT asks" methods a lot of people seem to play, this has the following advantages:

 

1. When opener raised on three, focuses on the reason WHY the raise was made (i.e. what is the short/weak side suit). This is key to deciding where to play.

2. Allows us to play in 2NT when we have no eight card major fit.

3. Very natural and easy to remember.

[gordontd]

Does one not just bid 1S rather than making a 3-card raise if holding 43(51)? Or maybe you raise if opener's spades are very poor?

 

ahydra

Standard in a 5cM system is to raise. If you bid 1S you have a problem if partner rebids 1NT as 2H now shows a stronger hand.

[Stephen Tu]

My concoction:

2nt, 3 opener's minor, 3M, all natural game tries nf. Difference from some other methods are you can play in 3m when responder is min 4cM and good fit for opener minor instead of 2nt when opener min and distributional and 3 cd raise.

 

3nt choice of games, opener leaves in with 3cd support, usually pulls with 4, unless like 4333 and notrumpy values.

 

Higher new suit= 4cd gf only looking for 4 supp or stopper in lower suit.

 

Lowest new suit=gf, either 4cd seeking best contract or 5+ seeking shape info for slam hunting purposes.

Then, first 3 step are 3cd raises, balanced/low short/high short. 4th step 4cd balanced. Higher are splinter with 4 supp.

[gwnn]

Does one not just bid 1S rather than making a 3-card raise if holding 43(51)? Or maybe you raise if opener's spades are very poor?

 

ahydra

Depends... If you generally raise on 4351/4315, you have the advantage of a correction to 2M on 3rd round clearly showing extras. I'm not convinced either way. Worst case scenario, opener just doesn't show spades very often because he doesn't have them very often :)

[nullve]

Does one not just bid 1S rather than making a 3-card raise if holding 43(51)? Or maybe you raise if opener's spades are very poor?

 

ahydra

I've seen Thomas Bessis (Bessis-Volcker?) play something like

 

1m-1♥; 1♠-1N; 2Om = 3 H, extras

1m-1♥; 1♠-1N; 2♥ = 3 H, no extras

[aawk]

Players support on a 3 card if 1nt rebid is not a option. The argument is that the don't have values in the side suits or a 3154 3145 1354 1345 pattern.

 

If you have to lie about your holdings it's better to do it in the minors than in the majors.

 

My advise is stop supporting on a 3 card and start playing 2-way check back stayman and holding a 3-1 in the majors with 5-4 in the minors always open 1♦ which will solve most problems.

 

After 1m - 1M - 1nt holds any nt pattern or a 5431 pattern with values in the other 3 card major or a 4 card ♥ (after 1m - 1♠).

 

So after 1m-1♠ 1nt could hold a 3451 3415 pattern or be the only exception you support on a 3 card, another option is to give a rebid in the minor on a 5 card (both must be in agreement with your partner).

 

1♦ - 1m - 2♣ shows at least 5-4 in the minors with a minimum and partner picks his best minor with a non forcing hand.

 

Follow up (in general) after 1m/M - 1M - 1nt - ??.

 

pass = to play max 9 HCP

2♣ = is a relay for 2♦ to play or check back

2♦ = game forcing check back

2M = as rebid to play with a 5+ card or as new suit game forcing with a uneven distribution

2♥ = (after 1♣ - 1♦ - 1nt) weak with 5 card ♠ and 4+ card ♥

2nt = relay for 3♣ to play or game forcing with a 5-5 pattern

3x = invite with a 5-5 pattern

3M = as rebid on agreement 6+ card as invite or game forcing

3nt to play

 

For example :

 

1♦ - 1♠ - 1nt - ??

 

2♣ = weak 4+ card ♦ or invite 4+ card ♠ 10-11 HCP

2♦ = game forcing 4+ card ♠

2♥ = weak 5+ card ♠ 4+ card ♥

2♠ = weak 5+ card ♠

2nt = weak 4xx5 or game forcing 55xx 5x5x 5xx5 (on agreement a 5404)

3♣ = invite 5xx5

3♦ = invite 5x5x

3♥ = invite 55xx

3♠ = 6+ card ♠ on agreement as invite or game forcing

3nt = to play

 

Follow up :

 

1♦ - 1♠ - 1nt - 2♣ - 2♦ - ??

 

pass = to play 4x5x

2♥ = invite 54xx

2♠ = invite 5+ card ♠

2nt = invite 4 card ♠

3♣ = invite 4xx6 (on agreement)

3♦ = invite 4x5x (on agreement)

3♥ = invite 64xx (on agreement)

3♠ = invite 6xxx (on agreement)

 

1♦ - 1♠ - 1nt - 2♦ - ??

 

2♥ = 4 card ♥ 3 card ♠ still possible

2♠ = 3 card ♠

2nt = minimum

3x = maximum what you show must be in agreement with partner

3nt = maximum nothing extra to tell (or ask)

 

1♦ - 1♠ - 1nt - 2nt - 3♣ - ??

 

pass = to play 4xx5

3♦ = game forcing 5x5x

3♥ = game forcing 55xx

3♠ = game forcing 5xx5

 

If you are interested in all other situations and extra agreements (depending on your system) send your e-mail address through bbo mail and I will send you a document with all possible check back situations.

[Cthulhu D]

The check back staan approach has a lot to recommend it. Alternatively Depending on your jurisdiction you might be doing a lot of labour to avoid just playing 1C as clubs or balanced and 1D as natural and unbalanced. Then you can always tell:

 

1C-1D! Showing hearts. 1H is 3 card support 2H is four card support 1NT is generally 2 card support but may be 1 in an extreme pinch.

 

Then after 1D-1M you can devote 1NT to clubs which gives you enough space to have two ways to raise which means you can differentiate 4 and 3 card raises.

[SelfGovern]

I play the following method:

 

2NT = NF, game interest with four trumps

... Pass = three trumps and min

... 3M = four trumps and min

... 4M = four trumps and max

... all others = 3 trumps and max, as descriptive as possible

 

<snippage>

 

This works, as long as you're only ever interested in game.

I, more than occasionally, am interested in whether partner has

three or four of my major so I know where and whether to play slam.

 

I want a system that helps differentiate between 3 and 4 trump,

as well as max or min (or slammish and not). In this case, make

your "all others" be 3-level calls, and perhaps the step above the

trump suit be 4-card, slammish, some singleton/void, so that

responder can ask with a relay.

 

 

 

[awm]

This works, as long as you're only ever interested in game.

I, more than occasionally, am interested in whether partner has

three or four of my major so I know where and whether to play slam.

 

I want a system that helps differentiate between 3 and 4 trump,

as well as max or min (or slammish and not). In this case, make

your "all others" be 3-level calls, and perhaps the step above the

trump suit be 4-card, slammish, some singleton/void, so that

responder can ask with a relay.

 

In my methods opener bids a second suit with a slammish hand. This gets the information you wanted (3 vs 4 support) but also helps identify shortness in the case of 3-fit, helps find a 4-4 fit it another suit that might play better than a 5-3 major fit, and helps identify which secondary cards will be useful for slam. This is much superior to a simple 3/4 min/max ask through 2nt!