After 1S-X-XX

[NickRW]

[hv=pc=n&s=sq2haj94dkjt7ct98&n=sj83hkt53d8543c42&d=e&v=b&b=10&a=1s(4%20card%20majors)dr]266|200[/hv]

 

I've never read and can't find any decent literature on the auction 1x-dbl-redbl-?

 

After a ridiculous 1♠xx plus a truly ugly amount, I figure it is about time partner and I learnt to handle this auction!

 

North passed 1♠xx "because I don't have a bid and partner is still there and can make the decision". South passed "because North has made a penalty pass". Comments please

[helene_t]

Standard treatment is that the pass asks doubler to chose.

 

There's a minority view (advocated by AWM on this forum) that the pass after xx is penalty. Maybe North can scramble with 1NT if that is the agreement? Even without that agreement, North could try 1NT and redouble if it gets doubled. But maybe 2♥ is more practical with this particular hand.

 

You may agree that it depends how many spades the opening shows. Penalty if it doesn't promise five cards (as in this case).

 

But absent specific agreements, the pass asks South to chose.

[mikeh]

[hv=pc=n&s=sq2haj94dkjt7ct98&n=sj83hkt53d8543c42&d=e&v=b&b=10&a=1s(4%20card%20majors)dr]266|200[/hv]

 

I've never read and can't find any decent literature on the auction 1x-dbl-redbl-?

 

After a ridiculous 1♠xx plus a truly ugly amount, I figure it is about time partner and I learnt to handle this auction!

 

North passed 1♠xx "because I don't have a bid and partner is still there and can make the decision". South passed "because North has made a penalty pass". Comments please

Firstly, on the posted hands, South doesn't have a double of 1♠, imo. He has a working 9 count, since the Qx of spades is unlikely to be a useful offensive asset (on the other hand, he rates to score it should the opps play in spades, since declarer will infer S to be short).

 

Secondly, possession of the spade Qx makes it improbable that partner holds a penalty pass (on the other hand, they are playing 4 card majors)

 

Thirdly, north absolutely has a place to go...why the heck not bid K1053 when partner, with his takeout double, guaranteed either that he has decent hearts or that he has a big, big hand....and the redouble already clarified that!

 

Finally, as for how to treat this, it is reasonably common, but I doubt that one could call it 'standard', to treat North's pass as penalty. What this hand shows, in addition to the enumerated points, is that it is often sufficient, or at least adequate, to have 'some agreement', even if not the 'optimal agreement' rather than guess.

 

FWIW, in my partnerships we play penalty passes of the redouble, but the sequence rarely arises. Here, for example, no member of any of my partnerships would double with the South hand and all members of my partnership would bid 2♥ with the north hand :D

[NickRW]

Firstly, on the posted hands, South doesn't have a double of 1♠, imo. He has a working 9 count...

 

 

I knew the original X would attract some justifiable criticism :huh: Thanks for your other comments.

[rmnka447]

After 1 ♠ - X - XX, fourth seat can hardly have much. The 1 ♠ bidder has an opener, doubler is at least close to an opener, and redouble presumably shows 10+. Even if they are at minimums, between them collectively they probably have 31-32 HCP. So any bid fourth seat makes is a preference in trying to find a landing place.

 

In an ideal world, you'd like to find an 8 card fit, but that's not always possible. In any case, doubler has presumably promised 3+ cards in any unbid suit, so it's OK for fourth seat to bid a 4 card suit.

 

With the hand given, I think fourth seat has a clear preference for ♥ and should bid 2 ♥.

[gordontd]

Finally, as for how to treat this, it is reasonably common, but I doubt that one could call it 'standard', to treat North's pass as penalty.

While it is common to treat other passes after redoubles as penalties, I think this one (after an opening bid is doubled and immediately redoubled) is very much rarer than "reasonably common".

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=sq2haj94dkjt7ct98&n=sj83hkt53d8543c42&d=e&v=b&b=10&a=1s(4%20card%20majors)dr]266|200|I've never read and can't find any decent literature on the auction 1x-dbl-redbl-? After a ridiculous 1♠xx plus a truly ugly amount, I figure it is about time partner and I learnt to handle this auction! North passed 1♠xx "because I don't have a bid and partner is still there and can make the decision". South passed "because North has made a penalty pass". Comments please [/hv]

• On North's actual hand, 2♥ seems clear.
• Undiscussed, after (1B) X (XX) ?? it's normal to play North's pass as 'pass the parcel' -- no clear opinion. In which case, South should bid 2♦ or 2♥.
• I like the partnership agreement that pass is a penalty suggestion, 5+ cards in the opening-bid suit e.g. ♠ K J x x x ♥ x x ♦ x x x ♣ J x x i.e. not pure penalties but no obvious alternative. This agreement is especially useful when the redouble is at the 2-level or higher.
• Opportunities for a proper penalty pass of the redouble (as played by MikeH) are rarer.

[steve2005]

• On North's actual hand, 2♥ seems clear.

 

Very Clear, nonsense that they have no bid

[gszes]

Do not get me started on the (lack of) merits on the original x.

The following ONLY applies after 1s x xx there is a ton more that can happen when opener starts with 1c 1d or 1h (at least a chapter in a book).

pass = penalty try. A hand with a VERY STRONG expectation of setting 1s xx opposite a minimum tox QJT8xx xx xx xxx any extra quacks a big plus.

1n = I hate the idea of playing 1s xx and have no clear path (no side 4+ card suit) this does NOT promise a stopper in spades. xxxxxx Qx Qx xxx (or worse even).

2c/d/h A bid trying to survive the bidding. Should have at least 4 cards in the suit (there is always that 1n bid if none present). This bid does not promise anything and the range is quite huge (say 0-8) but when opps xx our odds of making much have

plummeted to almost nil so there should be little problem with bidding 2H with hands as far apart as xxxx xxxx xxx xx or xxxx xxxx Axx Ax.

2s = hearts and a minor with enough hcp/distribution to equal 10+ xxx Kxxxx Kxxxx void as a minimum

2n = similar to 2s but shows both minors.

3c/d = with game chances so slim I prefer to limit this bid to something like xxx xxx KQJxxx x with lesser hands prefer 2m. I admit opposite most minimum tox this will go down 1 but the opps will have lots of trouble x this hand since we have a STRONG

suit and the x hand is still unlimited.

3h = 5 or more hearts and enough side distribution to equal around 10 points I would not worry much about suit quality. xxx xxxxxx AQx x

above this level are hands so rare that spending a lot of time worrying about them is for long term partnerships.

 

Having spelled all of this out IMHO I vastly prefer 2d over 2h. We are trying to survive this auction and bidding 2d gives us 2 chances instead of one to do just that. If 2d is not x we have survived. If 2d is x we can now run/flee/scurry to 2h. If that is not x we have survived. It might also scare the opps out of x if they suddenly (and mistakenly) think we have extra distribution and decide to not x because of that concern which means we have survived. There is no reason to suspect 2d is a better spot than 2h merely that it gives us more ways to succeed in our primary goal of surviving this bidding. BTW IF there had been no xx I would prefer a 2h bid over 2d since that is our longest and strongest suit because our fear of getting slaughtered has been significantly reduced and if we are defending I would vastly prefer a heart lead from p vs a dia.