Puzzling bidding question

[Cthulhu D]

Had a hand that puzzled partner and I last night:

 

S -

H QJ743

D A97642

C A6

 

Partner picks this up sitting dealer all Vul.

 

Question 1: Do you open this 1H or 1D?

 

Partner elected to open his longest suit, and the auction proceeded:

 

1D-1S-2C! (for us this shows hearts). What happened next at the table was us randomly stumbling around, but it did expose a small issue with the system/life, what does responder do with:

 

 

S AKJ6

H AT2

D K3

C QJ72

 

I think your options are panicking, 3C as FSF, really not sure.

[lycier]

Both of ♥ and ♦ are not good suits in the 13hcp hand, so I would plan to open 1♥.

[Stephen Tu]

I'd open 1♥.

 

As for your other question, it's really impossible for us to recommend anything when you present your own artificial system, but don't specify whether:

- 2c promises extra values

- 2c promises reverse shape

- what responder's 2nd round bids mean, which are forcing, and what strength ranges they promise.

[The_Badger]

Length before strength except where you haven't got any strength - where's the intermediates?! one unsupported curse of Scotland card amongst nine tramtickets - and I'm opening 1♥ like everyone else. 2♦ is such an easy rebid with this hand in most systems.

[nige1]

Had a hand that puzzled partner and me last night.

Partner picks this up sitting dealer all Vul. ♠- ♥ Q J 7 4 3 ♦ A 9 7 6 4 2 ♣ A 6

Question 1: Do you open this 1♥ or 1♦?

Partner elected to open his longest suit, and the auction proceeded:

1♦ - 1♠ - [2C]! (for us this shows hearts).

What happened next at the table was us randomly stumbling around, but it did expose a small issue with the system/life.

What does responder do with: ♠ A K J 6 ♥ A T 2 ♦ K 3 ♣ Q J 7 2

I think your options are panicking, 3♣ as FSF, really not sure.

Using normal methods, a "prepared" 1♥ opener allows you to show 5-5, eventually.

Using Cthulhu's methods, where a 2♣ rebid shows ♥, a 1♦ opener seems OK.

It should allow opener to pattern out, economically, after responders FSF:

1♦ - 1♠ - 2♣ - 3♣ - 3♥ (or whatever).

[Cthulhu D]

I'd open 1♥.

 

As for your other question, it's really impossible for us to recommend anything when you present your own artificial system, but don't specify whether:

- 2c promises extra values

- 2c promises reverse shape

- what responder's 2nd round bids mean, which are forcing, and what strength ranges they promise.

 

It promises 4+ hearts, doesn't partly limit values. 1D is always unbalanced. I didn't specify what the rest of the system promises because, as I said, we had a problem not catered for by the same lol. 2D and 2H are preference, otherwise not designed!

 

Edit: Yeah rebidding hearts to show a 5-5 seems pretty good but a struggle to agree trumps. Needs must etc etc.

[silvr bull]

S -

H QJ743

D A97642

C A6

 

Partner picks this up sitting dealer all Vul.

 

Question 1: Do you open this 1H or 1D?

No. This is an easy first pass for me. I see this hand as having opening values only if partner has a fit for a red suit. If partner has lots of black cards, he will be disappointed in my hand after any normal auction. If LHO declares a S contract, I probably would not want partner to lead a H. If my hearts were KJxxx, I would still pass first, but it would not be an easy choice. If hearts were KJTxx or my hand was better, I would open 1H, and treat the hand like a minimum with 5-5 in the red suits.

 

After I limit my hand with a first pass, there are likely to be several ways I can show strength in a two suited hand later, without telling partner that I have a much better hand. There is substantial value in limiting my hand as quickly as possible so partner does not assume that I have more values than a sub-minimum.

[ahydra]

No. This is an easy first pass for me.

 

Pass?! That's quite some extreme! You have opening values even without the bucketloads of extra shape. I understand the point about it being a possible misfit, but partner will never play you for a hand this good if you start with pass.

 

I'd open 1H, rebid 2D over partner's 1S. Partner continues with 3C planning to support hearts to show extras; then 3D-3H and you might continue 4C-4D; 4S-4NT; 5NT (2 with void)-6H or similar.

 

ahydra

[Tramticket]

I don't mind 1♦, but this is a rare occasion where I open 1♥.

 

What I don't understand is how anyone could pass this! You are very likely to have to decide what to do over an opposing 4♠ at your next turn.

[Cyberyeti]

I would have thought you're quite well placed after 1♦-1♠-2♣-3♣(4SF)-3♥

[fromageGB]

To me it's an opening hand, a good 11 and two 5 card suits suffice for me.

I'd open 1M always on an {x5}{6x}.

 

With a hand strong enough for a reverse, I'd open a minor. Even then you need a decent agreement over how to handle continuations. In the absence of such the other day with diamonds and spades, I could not describe the major as 5 cards. I rebid it, but that 3♠ rebid could have been a general force to allow partner to bid 3NT if he had the clubs. 5-3 fit missed. Of course, agreements such as "a reverse forces a transfer" allows responder to show 3 card support.

 

If you are going to open this hand 1♦ you have to be sure you have methods to find a 5-3 major fit at the 2 or 3 level. What if partner was weaker and not able to make a forcing bid or bids?

[ggwhiz]

You don't mention the scoring but I would open 1♥ 100% at imps and 200% at mp's. Majors rule with very rare exceptions.

 

Every auction that I can remember that starts with the lower suit in a 5-6 shape turns into a major gropefest for strain AND level should the opponents so much as squeak a bid and south should be very concerned about that.

 

As mentioned, 3♣ (fsf) followed by 3♥ should solve this one unless partner thinks it's a values showing bid aiming for 3nt from their side so their are too many risks even in free run auctions unless opener has substantial extra strength.

 

BTW, how on earth does opener show diamonds and clubs?

[Cthulhu D]

You don't mention the scoring but I would open 1♥ 100% at imps and 200% at mp's. Majors rule with very rare exceptions.

 

Every auction that I can remember that starts with the lower suit in a 5-6 shape turns into a major gropefest for strain AND level should the opponents so much as squeak a bid and south should be very concerned about that.

 

As mentioned, 3♣ (fsf) followed by 3♥ should solve this one unless partner thinks it's a values showing bid aiming for 3nt from their side so their are too many risks even in free run auctions unless opener has substantial extra strength.

 

BTW, how on earth does opener show diamonds and clubs?

 

Scoring is IMPS.

 

We're playing 1C = clubs or balanced, so then you don't need openers 1NT rebid to show a balanced hand. Then we play

 

1D-1H

 

1S: Natural

1NT: Clubs

2C: 6+ Diamonds

2D: Bad heart raise

2H: Good heart raise (These are this way around to preserve symmetry with other parts of our system, though fast arrival would probably be technically better)

 

1D-1S:

1NT: Clubs

2C: Hearts

2D: Diamonds

2H: Bad Spade Raise

2D: Good spade raise

[TylerE]

No. This is an easy first pass for me.

 

Can I play money bridge against you? Pretty please?

[MrAce]

I'd open 1♦ with a known pd, else I'd open 1♥.

[Joe_Old]

With some partners in a 2/1 system I play 1♣/♦ - P - 1♠ - P - 3♥ as this hand. Since 2♥ would be a reverse, the jump to 3♥ shows a 5-6 or better, but minimal opening values. (4♥ would be a splinter). The 3♥ call wasn't being used anyway, so....

 

I cribbed this idea from an American expert (sorry, I've forgotten who), so there's probably discussion of the idea online.

[Joe_Old]

Addition to prior post:

 

This system can also be used over a NT response, or to show 5-6 in spades/hearts, spades/diamonds, spades/ clubs, hearts/clubs or diamonds/clubs. It can sometimes be used over interference, but that takes a lot of discussion.

[nullve]

With some partners in a 2/1 system I play 1♣/♦ - P - 1♠ - P - 3♥ as this hand. Since 2♥ would be a reverse, the jump to 3♥ shows a 5-6 or better, but minimal opening values. (4♥ would be a splinter). The 3♥ call wasn't being used anyway, so....

 

I cribbed this idea from an American expert (sorry, I've forgotten who), so there's probably discussion of the idea online.

I believe Lauria-Versace have played something like

 

1x-1y; 3z(x<z<y) = MIN, 6+x5z

 

for ages, so maybe Lauria came up with the idea?

[Zelandakh]

I believe Lauria-Versace have played something like

 

1x-1y; 3z(x<z<y) = MIN, 6+x5z

 

for ages, so maybe Lauria came up with the idea?

It is a common enough idea and has been mentioned on BBF a number of times. I even played it myself a long time ago but was never overly impressed. What I am fairly sure of is that the idea is much older than Lauria though. Lorenzo was born in 1947 and I would be surprised if the concept was not already floating around back then and certainly before he started to become known in the (late?) 70s.

[Cyberyeti]

It is a common enough idea and has been mentioned on BBF a number of times. I even played it myself a long time ago but was never overly impressed. What I am fairly sure of is that the idea is much older than Lauria though. Lorenzo was born in 1947 and I would be surprised if the concept was not already floating around back then and certainly before he started to become known in the (late?) 70s.

 

We play something like this, but basically it's "2 good suits, not a good hand" so make the hand KJ10xx, AKJxxx, xx we'd use this sequence, the suits here aren't good enough

[bravejason]

I'm of the opinion that if 1of a major promises five cards, then you need to open 1 of a major whenever you can. If you have a good enough hand to reverse then you can look at other options. If you don't open the five card major then partner assumes you have four at most and it becomes difficult to communicate that you have 5 unless your system has a backdoor way to let you show the 5 card major.

 

So I'd open the OP hand 1 heart and if partner can't support hearts, rebid diamonds until the cows come home.

[Zelandakh]

We play something like this, but basically it's "2 good suits, not a good hand" so make the hand KJ10xx, AKJxxx, xx we'd use this sequence, the suits here aren't good enough

Most of the books and articles (example) I have seen on the idea either talk about exercising judgement or explicitly point out that the suits should be good, so I would regard your approach as mainstream. The question becomes where the cutoff lies - QJxxx and A9xxxx are not great suits but also not bad, so I could easily see this hand coming up on either side of the line for different pairs.

[MrAce]

http://bridgewinners.com/article/view/bidding-problem-2-haddt8zepv/

[rmnka447]

I'm also a 1 ♥ bidder on this hand. Sure it has 11 red cards, but poor suit quality really pushes me toward bidding the major first. Make it S - H KQ10xx D AQ10xxx C xx and I'd bid it naturally starting with 1 ♦ - still not many HCP, but much better playing strength.

 

Responder could always make a negative double if no other bid fits and follow up with a NT bid later. This might by agreement show more than 13-15 if that's what a direct 3 NT over 1 ♠ would show.

[Zelandakh]

http://bridgewinners.com/article/view/bidding-problem-2-haddt8zepv/

As the first respondent writes, there is quite a difference between ♦+♥ and ♦+♠ on these hands and it is unwise to draw too many conclusions from one hand type when speaking of the other.