Grand Aspirations

[lamford]

[hv=pc=n&s=s62ht9d54caqjt854&w=saj74hak86542djtc&n=st93hqj73d862c972&e=skq85hdakq973ck63&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=3c4hppp]399|300[/hv]

The Intercities online teams Aberystwyth v Popovo yesterday featured a board flat in 4H+1 with the same auction in both rooms. I was West and could not help feeling that we had left a shot or two on the course, as they say in golf. Can any readers suggest an improvement on this auction or was it just one of those things?

[Stephen Tu]

Preempts work?

 

East could just punt 6nt which probably makes if either red suit runs?

[Cyberyeti]

I can't imagine bidding anything other than pass if W bids 4♥ you can easily be off 2 aces, if you overcall anything else you have chances.

[cherdano]

I am surprised at the previous replies - 4♥ is a strong bid, I'd rather bid 6♦ than pass as East. Am I being too optimistic?

[Cyberyeti]

I am surprised at the previous replies - 4♥ is a strong bid, I'd rather bid 6♦ than pass as East. Am I being too optimistic?

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see a similar hand with a heart suit headed by KQJ10 maybe with an 8th one.

[The_Badger]

Partner hasn't bid yet so trotting out 4♥ over the lowest three level pre-empt is a bit agricultural (but the standard bid agreed). Given the opponents have made a vulnerable first in hand pre-empt, I can't see too much wrong with Dbl, especially with 4 card support for both majors. Dbl doesn't necessarily promise support for all suits but it does promise a hand that wishes to compete however and this is a big HOWEVER Dbl. followed by a suit bid (especially if the opponents compete too) is open to all sorts of interpretations. That's the problem defining the 4-7-2-0 shape afterwards. Even with an experienced partnership this will probably be fraught with difficulty given the limited space, and the expectation that partner is likely to respond in ♦s.

 

On this hand Dbl. could well work, but that is resulting seeing all four hands, so yes I have to agree that pre-empts are sometimes highly effective.

[Cyberyeti]

Partner hasn't bid yet so trotting out 4♥ over the lowest three level pre-empt is a bit agricultural (but the standard bid agreed). Given the opponents have made a vulnerable first in hand pre-empt, I can't see too much wrong with Dbl, especially with 4 card support for both majors. Dbl doesn't necessarily promise support for all suits but it does promise a hand that wishes to compete however and this is a big HOWEVER Dbl. followed by a suit bid (especially if the opponents compete too) is open to all sorts of interpretations. That's the problem defining the 4-7-2-0 shape afterwards. Even with an experienced partnership this will probably be fraught with difficulty given the limited space, and the expectation that partner is likely to respond in ♦s.

 

On this hand Dbl. could well work, but that is resulting seeing all four hands, so yes I have to agree that pre-empts are sometimes highly effective.

 

What do you expect partner to do with say Qxx, Qxx, xxx, QJ109 if you double ? This hand is not easy.

 

I think I'd bid 3♥ to leave spades in the equation.

[cherdano]

I wouldn't be surprised to see a similar hand with a heart suit headed by KQJ10 maybe with an 8th one.

Sure that is possible. But even opposite that hand, slam is quite playable. And I think the odds favour partner having some useful highcards, along with a doubleton diamond.

[Cyberyeti]

Sure that is possible. But even opposite that hand, slam is quite playable. And I think the odds favour partner having some useful highcards, along with a doubleton diamond.

 

Sorry, I was thinking similar but not identical hand, was visualising say AJx, KQJ10xxxx, (x), x(x) (wouldn't you overcall 4♥ ?)

[Tramticket]

Sorry, I was thinking similar but not identical hand, was visualising say AJx, KQJ10xxxx, (x), x(x) (wouldn't you overcall 4♥ ?)

 

4♥ is necessarily a wide-range bid. There are too many hands to describe and too little space. That's why opponents pre-empt.

 

I must admit that, if I have a seven-card suit I usually try to plat in it rather than search for a 4-4 fit. So I agree with 4♥. Passing 4♥ with the East cards looks normal. Yes, if I can see both hands I bid differently, but 4♥ looks like the most likely contract.

[Joe_Old]

Sorry, I was thinking similar but not identical hand, was visualising say AJx, KQJ10xxxx, (x), x(x) (wouldn't you overcall 4♥ ?)

 

Assuming a 2/1 or some other standard American system, Cyberyeti's example hand is about the minimum I'd expect for a 4♥ bid: strong, showing 7+ tricks and setting ♥ as trump. I disagree with the actual deal/auction because West is too weak - it's closer to a pre-empt over a pre-empt than the strong hand a jump shift should promise.

 

Given that, I'd bid 3♥ with the actual West hand, allowing East to get into the auction with any reasonable collection.

 

Given the actual auction, East's pass opposite a (supposedly) powerful jump shift is way too timid.

[msjennifer]

What does a bid of 4C/D mean if bid directly over 3C ? Could it be suggesting both majors with longer H/S respectively?

[Palladian]

I'm surprised that in this company no-one has a defence to PEs. They happen so often, particularly with random deals and especially in the sort of company I keep. If you play * - pens & 3D - TO, once responder raises D (4 stronger or 5 to play) then it is a question of which route you take and judgement. I do not bid H straight away for two reasons. The suit is not solid enough and there are 4spades.

[lamford]

What does a bid of 4C/D mean if bid directly over 3C ? Could it be suggesting both majors with longer H/S respectively?

4C would be both majors and 4D would be diamonds and hearts in our methods. With spades and diamonds, you have to just bid 3S or 4S. I think that is a fairly common treatment for those playing leaping and non leaping Michaels.

 

Most experts I have spoken to replicate the auction we had. One said, "I would not reach a grand on the East hand even if I had seen the West hand, as, if I did, people would know that I had seen the West hand!"

[CodeByJim]

Let's analyze this by what you know as opposed to what you hope. S opens 3!c indicating 9 hcp. You as West hold 13 hcp. 9+13=22 hcp leaving 18 unaccounted for. Using the rule of reasonable estimation, the other 2 hands hold 9 hcp apiece. Therefor, you can estimate that WE has 22 hcp, not enough for game, but easily enough for a contract at the 3 level. W should bid 3 !h. If N bids 3 !s, West knows he has 13+ hcp leaving your partner with 5 hcp. If N passes your estimation of his hand remains at 9 hcp. Now it is up to your partner to begin telling you about his hand. With a very strong 6 card !d suit headed by AKQ, E must bid 4!d. Since E went to the 4 level you know your team has 25+ hcp. Add the fact that New Minor Forcing also indicates a strong hand. South has no choice but to pass as he knows that his team only has 12 hcp between them. Back to W. Since your 3!h bid showed a long/strong !h suit, you should now show your good !s suit at the 4 level. N passes and E supports the !s bid at the 5 level. S passes and W shows his !d support at the 6 level to which E sets the contract at 6!s. No muss, no fuss! Just simple addition and subtraction. And by the way, I don't take the 4!h bid after the 3 !c bid as anything other than a close out bid, and a poor one at that.

[MrAce]

The Intercities online teams Aberystwyth v Popovo yesterday featured a board flat in 4H+1 with the same auction in both rooms. I was West and could not help feeling that we had left a shot or two on the course, as they say in golf. Can any readers suggest an improvement on this auction or was it just one of those things?

 

4♥ is an awful bid. It shows self sufficient suit and not much sympathy to play in another suit. He has neither of them.

For the pessimism of East, I agree with Cherdano.

[miamijd]

A bit unfortunate, if you ask me.

 

West has a choice between 3H and 4H. Double is not good at all, Badger; partner will pass with a lot of hands where 3cX comes rolling home and you can make 4H.

 

I personally prefer 4H to show a much better hand (I might possibly make that call if my heart spots were a lot better, like AKT9xxx), and generally a hand that wants to play H regardless. I would bid 3H. Then I think you can get to a small slam easily enough, probably 6D. Grand is much harder.

 

Over 4H, it's tougher. If you play it as wide-ranging, then I sympathize with East's pass, although 6D is possible (you won't like that if partner has JTc and a d void or even 4711). If you play it as a very strong hand, as I do, then I think you can pretty much force slam somewhere. Maybe 5D (forcing) and if partner continues with 5H, try 5S.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[miamijd]

deleted

[GrahamJson]

Obviously it is easy to solve this puzzle when you can see all four hands, but I can’t see myself passing 4H on the east hand. Just a thought, but how about 5NT; pick a slam. Then, if west is suitably inspired he might find 6S.

 

Of course you might still find yourself in 6H losing a trump and an ace, but that seems unlikely as west has got to have something for his 4H bid and it certainly isn’t diamonds. Also, if all west can do is repeat his hearts east, again if feeling suitable inspired, might try 6NT, which should certainly role home if hearts are solid and would have chances if they weren’t.

 

Having said all that I suspect I would have just raised 4H to six, for a terrible score.

[lamford]

4♥ is an awful bid.

It is very easy to say this without suggesting an alternative. 3H will get the dummy opposite KQx x KQxxx xxxx. And double will get partner to pass with KQx xxx KQx QJTx. I surveyed the 4 top players in the London Superleague and they all thought 4H was automatic. Quite frankly, other bids are awful.

[Cyberyeti]

It is very easy to say this without suggesting an alternative. 3H will get the dummy opposite KQx x KQxxx xxxx. And double will get partner to pass with KQx xxx KQx QJTx. I surveyed the 4 top players in the London Superleague and they all thought 4H was automatic. Quite frankly, other bids are awful.

 

And 4♥ will get you the dummy opposite KQxxx, void, Q9xx, QJ10x meaning you play in the game that doesn't make rather than either of the 2 that do.

 

No bid is perfect, they all have pluses and minuses.

[Joe_Old]

Apparently there is a dispute between US and British (Acol?) players as whether to treat the example hand as worthy of a jump shift. A systemic argument. Here, a 3♥ call by a 2/1 player will get you to a makable slam. The actual 4♥ call didn't. A victory for 2/1.

 

One hand doesn't prove anything, but I haven't heard any theoretical arguments to make me believe that a jump shift on that hand is superior in the long run.

[Cyberyeti]

Apparently there is a dispute between US and British (Acol?) players as whether to treat the example hand as worthy of a jump shift. A systemic argument. Here, a 3♥ call by a 2/1 player will get you to a makable slam. The actual 4♥ call didn't. A victory for 2/1.

 

One hand doesn't prove anything, but I haven't heard any theoretical arguments to make me believe that a jump shift on that hand is superior in the long run.

 

Sorry, not sure quite what you're on, try reading the OP, this is NOTHING to do with anything you've stated, this is an overcall, a jump SHIFT is a response.

 

System is completely and utterly irrelevant, this is hand evaluation and judgment.

[Joe_Old]

Sorry, not sure quite what you're on, try reading the OP, this is NOTHING to do with anything you've stated, this is an overcall, a jump SHIFT is a response.

 

System is completely and utterly irrelevant, this is hand evaluation and judgment.

 

Actually, if you read my posts (2), you'd know that I was in complete agreement with you. I guess you're not ......

 

OKay - not "jump shift" - jump overcall. Point is that in the 2/1 system that I'm familiar with, West's 4♥ call was an overbid. Obviously other systems have other definitions.

 

And this is definitely systemic. Jump overcalls over pre-empts have definite systemic meanings. It may be a matter of judgment as to whether a particular call fits the systemic meaning, but that doesn't change the fact that the system has defined the call. lamford and the players he polled obviously accept a definition of a jump overcall that includes hands weaker than you or MrAce will accept.

 

MrAce claims (I agree) that the best use of a 4♥ bid in the given situation is "a self sufficient suit and not much sympathy to play in another suit". I'd like to know from lamford, or anyone else, why another systemic definition will yield better results over the long term.

[MrAce]

It is very easy to say this without suggesting an alternative. 3H will get the dummy opposite KQx x KQxxx xxxx. And double will get partner to pass with KQx xxx KQx QJTx. I surveyed the 4 top players in the London Superleague and they all thought 4H was automatic. Quite frankly, other bids are awful.

 

To me only call is DBL. Oh and if pd passes with KQx xxx KQx QJTx, despite missing our 10 card fit, we collect a reasonable +500 or +800 instead of probably going down at 5 level or going +620 +650 after strong 4♥ bid and we survive not getting too high. Such a big deal?

How about the times when our side does not have 10 card ♥ fit, you and your top players go ahead and figure it out http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif

You can ask many top players in USA and they will explain you the difference between direct 4♥ overcall vs DBL followed by 4♥ the wau i did.

 

Over 3 ♣

4♥ = I have a very good suit and not much tolerance to play another suit. ( Ax AKJT9xx x Axx)

DBL followed by 4♥ = I have a good suit but I have tolerance to play another suit. ( KQx AQJxxx AK xx )