What is the purpose of this forum?

[helene_t]

I just went to play a hand so I could explain it properly.

Thanks!

[virgosrock]

You should absolutely not use quotes for something the person didn't say. And the quotations you used (made up) are extremely different from what I actually said.

 

Otherwise, we will just have to agree to disagree. I see no reason to respond to insulting messages, and I don't think it's arrogant to expect to be treated respectfully. Of course people have a right to be frustrated, and to vent. But somehow, most people manage to express that without insulting anyone. Everyone has the opportunity to report issues respectfully. If they forgo that opportunity, then so be it, there is plenty more to work on and progress will still be made.

 

Here are the verbatim quotes

"I was checking this more often, but I got sick of some of the rudeness frankly. I may not respond to threads with mocking like LOL or insults like calling GIB an idiot,"

"The report is very rude. I don't mind that someone is frustrated, but if it involves cursing and insults toward BBO, or me, or Fred, or whatever, I will ignore it immediately, without apology."

 

I'd rather bugs be fixed asap instead of time being wasted on purity of quotes.

 

I am VERY happy BBO is being heard from. Yuck!! ending in a preposition. The feedback provided is heartening.

 

thanks

vrock

[steve2005]

I don't know anything about the GIB database, but if it was easy, I assume it would have been done already.

Converting database format is a very common process. no it isn't trivial.

The current format is compact and unreadable by humans.

Would be simple to take convert format to a new format that is essentially the same but spaced and listing the information and using headers to make it usable. You wouldn't even have to change the format or the way Gib accesses the information. a 1st year computer science student is capable of this.

 

You could make improvements in design if you want but it sounds like simply being able to read the database, make changes and ensure database information matched database descriptions of bids given to players is what is needed.

[helene_t]

Bidding database can be rewritten/converted fairly easily to a new format .

It's not like converting if from Access to MySQL or such. It's about the semantics of the data. Things like whether 2♦(transfer to hearts) and 2♥(transfer to spades) are two instantiations of the same flexible rule or whether it is two different rules. That was a fairly trivial example. You can imagine it gets more tricky when we talk about the rules for the forcing character of various 2nd round bids in contested auctions, whether a control bid promises extra values etc.

[steve2005]

It's not like converting if from Access to MySQL or such. It's about the semantics of the data. Things like whether 2♦(transfer to hearts) and 2♥(transfer to spades) are two instantiations of the same flexible rule or whether it is two different rules. That was a fairly trivial example. You can imagine it gets more tricky when we talk about the rules for the forcing character of various 2nd round bids in contested auctions, whether a control bid promises extra values etc.

I doubt the database list transfers as two instances of the same rule.

it will list the bids as 2 separate bids. If it does treat as related then you would follow the format of the old database.

 

Presumably there is entry in the database to say if forcing (though with Gibs bidding not sure it has that) or at least to show the strength. You wont have to determine if a bid is forcing when converting you merely translate the information on the bid that is already there. if gib hasn't already determined some bid is forcing why would you think you have to translating the database.

 

I'm not suggesting any changes be made to the meaning of the format. Merely that the format be made to be readable by humans. A program can be written to automate the process.

 

This is easy but not trivial a 1st year student could do it. I know we had an assignment to do something

similar in 1st year.

 

Databases are a mathematical construct and follow rules. Not all databases have easy rules but it must have rules or it wouldn't be usable by Gib.

[steve2005]

Biggest problem knowing if Gibs bidding database can be converted is we don't know what the database is?

If it isn't a database but a combination of AI rules and data then could be a problem and not as useful.

 

If Gib database is part of the program as was common bad programing practise back then to get program faster. This would increase difficulty greatly.

[smerriman]

Biggest problem knowing if Gibs bidding database can be converted is we don't know what the database is?

We know what it used to look like a long long time ago; I doubt the format has changed much since then.

[steve2005]

We know what it used to look like a long long time ago; I doubt the format has changed much since then.

hard to know for sure. don't know what format the data is in or means.

But the early items in English look more like AI rules than a database.

if is a set of rules it's not a database but an AI program

Also there are many function calls which means it's a program not a database

 

[nige1]

We know what it used to look like a long long time ago; I doubt the format has changed much since then.

Wow! Fascinating!

[idahodon]

I wonder if we could number our attempted bug reports; I just started playing online robot games a few months ago, since my club had to close; I've noticed a few bid-announcements that didn't seem to match or describe the hand held by my robot partner.

 

I finally got around to sending feedback but ran into a few obstacles. Firstly, the help system description to report a robot bug didn't work as advertised which I reported to BBO-Support and it is referenced as [rt.bridgebase.com #932852].

 

Secondly I wanted to report a Lebensohl-reply to a take-out-double of a weak-2 bid and the robot's reply to the 3C forced response said the robot's 2J's and singleton was 10-12 HCP's which seems to bit overstated. I took images useing MicroSoft Paint to publish the problem in report [rt.bridgebase.com #933035].

 

I finally requested updates after a week of waiting for a reply. Some poor volunteer tried to give me a pat on the head answer "If you have made a report, our programmers see it and among other problems they have they continuously make updates. We don't receive feedback about them." Therefore I gather that there is no need to report robot problems.

 

However if the readers of this forum subject started organizing them, we might be able to persuade the bbo brass to raise the priority, especially if the list of several items were sent to them monthly (weekly ?). I don't know if anyone wants to go back very far, but an item posted in 2016 with date of post or even the rt.bridgebase.com # could seem effective.

[pilowsky]

Agree

[nige1]

Perhaps the programmers could start an active post/blog in the Forum that only they could post to explaining in real time what issues are being worked on with priority. Just a suggestion.

IMO

1. BBO has few programmers and they are busy full-time, coping with scaling up BBO to meet new demands and implementing revenue-enhancing schemes.
2. Matt Ginsberg, a brilliant AI guru, wrote clever succinct C code that new programmers would find hard to understand, even if they tried.
3. There's not much point in implementing 1-off kludges to fix specific faults. Gib's heuristics are broken.
4. GIB's bidding problems seem structural: its bidding module probably needs a complete rewrite, based on FD (Full Disclosure) principles, but using a more intuitive format, such as that implemented, years ago, by Kungsgeten.
5. Such an update would allow Gib to play the systems and conventions that its human partners prefer.
6. Gib would also be able to understand opponents methods, if presented in the standard format.
7. Probably, even better would be to replace GIB with a modern bot like WBridge5.
8. Although that would result in more complaints because modern bots would dominate most BBO players, even on low settings.
9. In the short term, BBO should nominate an employee to take personal responsibility for robots (as JDonn did in the past).
10. The named person could monitor this forum and update players with progress, if there is any.

[pilowsky]

IMO

1. BBO has few programmers and they are busy full-time, coping with scaling up BBO to meet new demands and implementing revenue-enhancing schemes.
2. Matt Ginsberg, a brilliant AI guru, wrote clever succinct C code that new programmers would find hard to understand, even if they tried.
3. There's not much point in implementing 1-off kludges to fix specific faults. Its heuristics need revision.
4. GIB's bidding problems seem structural, however: its bidding module probably needs a complete rewrite, based on FD principles, but using a more intuitive format, such as that proposed, years ago, by Kungsgeten.
5. Such an update would allow Gib to play the systems and conventions that its human partners prefer.
6. Gib would also be able to understand opponents methods, if presented in the standard format.
7. Probably, even better would be to replace GIB with a modern bot like WBridge5.
8. Although that would result in more complaints because modern bots would dominate most BBO players, even on low settings.
9. In the short term, BBO should nominate an employee to take personal responsibility for robots (as JDonn did in the past).
10. The named person could monitor this forum and update players with progress, if there is any.

 

Items 9 and 10 are what I'm getting at. Otherwise, I'm pretty happy with BBO. I'm sure it'll become perfect in the summer when the heat arrives. Like a miracle.