Old hand

[han]

Here is a hand I had more than a year ago:

 

White vs Red.

 

Ax

J9xxxx

Jxx

xx

 

LHO opens 1H, partner doubles, RHO passes. What now?

 

If you bid 1NT then LHO will bid 2D, partner will double, and RHO bids 2H. Would you double this?

[mike777]

Here is a hand I had more than a year ago:

 

White vs Red.

 

Ax

J9xxxx

Jxx

xx

 

LHO opens 1H, partner doubles, RHO passes. What now?

 

If you bid 1NT then LHO will bid 2D, partner will double, and RHO bids 2H. Would you double this?

1)pass

2)x

3) not the first time or last the opp make doubled contract. I try to follow Larry Cohen/Bergen bidding philosophy of going out of the way to not make takeout doubles on a void if at all possible, hopefully our partner is playing the same. Perhaps this time P had 4045 and hated the 2club overcall option.

[Guest Jlall]

1N. No I will not X 2H. I would consider passing this t/o X a gross error, and Xing 2H even to be an error.

[inquiry]

1NT

[HeartA]

1NT over pd's x. Over rho's 2H, I might dbl, or pass, depending on scoring and status of match (lossing, winning, or gamble on swing).

[luke warm]

what does partner's double of diamonds say (yeah, i'd bid 1nt over his first x)? ... can he have a black 2 suiter? no matter what he has, his 2nd double tells me he has a minimum of 16 hcp and could have more... i think his x of 2d is penalty... i'd x 2h, even having read justin saying it's an error... maybe it is, maybe it isn't... if it is, it won't be the last one i make

[the hog]

Can't pass as the H are not good enough. Can't bid 1NT - lacking a bit of stuffing. Can't bid 1S - I only have 2 and anyway, I don't want to excite partner. The only option left is 2D.

 

Had the bidding gone the way you describe, no, I would not X 2H. Partner looks like he has a void and this may very well make.

[whereagles]

2D for me as well.

[P_Marlowe]

1) 1NT.

2) X, hopefully Partners 2nd double promised

additional strength

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[joker_gib]

1) 1NT.

2) X, hopefully Partners 2nd double promised

additional strength

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

Same for me !

 

2♦ on a 3 cards suit is not for me ;)

 

Alain

[kgr]

1N. No I will not X 2H. I would consider passing this t/o X a gross error, and Xing 2H even to be an error.

Why do you (strongly) prefer 1NT over Pass?

Opps have max. a 7-card fit in H. I would think that if you can make 1NT then opps will not be able to make 1H.

NV vs V I would pass this.

Any explanation of why 1NT is better then pass is appreciated.

[Fluffy]

(1♥)-X-pass-2♦ to me, and no, I wouldn't double anything below 4♥.

[Guest Jlall]

1N. No I will not X 2H. I would consider passing this t/o X a gross error, and Xing 2H even to be an error.

Why do you (strongly) prefer 1NT over Pass?

Opps have max. a 7-card fit in H. I would think that if you can make 1NT then opps will not be able to make 1H.

NV vs V I would pass this.

Any explanation of why 1NT is better then pass is appreciated.

Well, if partner is void in trumps then its totally hopeless. Other than the 9 we have no trump spots. Partner can never even lead a trump. Declarer will score at least the 5 trumps in his hand plus his side suit winners. If partner is void thats also bad since he could be lighter than normal to X 1H. Even if declarer is in a 5-1 fit, unless partner has the stiff ten or queen, he will again likely score his 5 trumps plus his side suit winners. we are 3-2-2 in the side suits which is very bad as he can strip our side suit cards and then when partner's hand is up we have to ruff his winners then lead trumps into dummy. I wouldn't consider making 3 unlikely (fluffy indicated this by saying he wouldn't X anything but 4H). so if they are white thats -380, if theyre red -580. yikes. 1N however may make even when 1H X is making 3 (heart blockage). Even if it goes down 1 or 2, I don't really care.

 

Now, when it goes 2D X 2H doubling is more reasonable but now we KNOW partner is void. We also know dummy is short in diamonds. We also know our 3 card suit is diamonds. So declarer could very likely score a ruff on this hand in the short hand, to go with his 5 trump tricks and just needs 2 side suit winners. Worse we're doubling into game this time.

[mike777]

Given the above, I would like to see more discussion on the plus and minus of not making takeout doubles with a void. Yes, we all know risk of missing 44 spades on this hand.

1) Can we still find it often enough with some overcall?

2) Do we gain enough by knowing p is 4144?

3) Do we just lose too much by partner not being able to show 4045 type hands that we cannot solve otherwise?

[luis]

2♦ for me first.

Then No, I won't double 2h.

[Guest Jlall]

Given the above, I would like to see more discussion on the plus and minus of not making takeout doubles with a void. Yes, we all know risk of missing 44 spades on this hand.

1) Can we still find it often enough with some overcall?

2) Do we gain enough by knowing p is 4144?

3) Do we just lose too much by partner not being able to show 4045 type hands that we cannot solve otherwise?

I would consider not Xing with a hand like KQxx --- KQxx Qxxxx insane. There are many hands like this. I think the gains FAR outweigh the loss when you can X with 40(45). Afterall what is a better description of the hand, a 3 suiter with short hearts or a hand with clubs? The gain by not Xing with a void is minimal as partner will not pass a 1 level X without massive trumps. I would be nervous Xing with that hand at the 3 level as pard will pass when its wrong sometimes, but its a game of percentages, which action rates to get you to the top spot and X is clearly it even if you will suffer the occasional bad result.

[pclayton]

One must avoid a reflex pass with hands like this.

 

I like 1N myself and pull 2♣ to 2♦.

 

I'll play 2H x'd if pard makes an action double over LHO's continuation. If LHO bids 2H and pard passes, I'll pass too.

[Double !]

initially respond 1NT- not into bidding 2 or 3-card suits when there is viable option even if a lesser lie. I like to win the race to 1NT anyway if possible.

 

pass 2 hearts, maybe I am now headed for a plus score on this hand. No need to give opener any more of a blueprint of the hands than already available. hope opener isn't cross-ruffing a whole bunch of tricks before performing some endplay. (BTW, can I slip P one of my hearts under the table or by Fedex?) If partner gives the cube (dbls) a 3rd time, I defend. Not sure where tricks are coming from on offense without P showing some source of tricks like a GOSH- hand or something: hand sounds like a blatant misfit. I know, wrong again- my life script at the bridge table.

 

(BTW: a pass of 1HX should show something like 6 solid hearts such as QJT9xx and some other cards. It says to partner "LEAD TRUMPS" if possible, I got you covered!)

[Guest Jlall]

On the point of 1N vs 2D, I think 1N is more practical. I'm about a point light but at least I won't land in a ridiculous contract.

[kgr]

1N. No I will not X 2H. I would consider passing this t/o X a gross error

Why do you (strongly) prefer 1NT over Pass?

Well, if partner is void in trumps then its totall<........snip......... >it winners. Worse we're doubling into game this time.

Thanks JLall. Interesting and you convinced me.

One more question: Is it an automatic pass (eg. no pass with 6 bad trumps) or a Pass from reasoning?

[Guest Jlall]

Doesn't seem automatic to pass since others chose to X 2H :lol:

[Winstonm]

On the question of whether to bid 2D or 1N - I have a slight preference for 2D on the reasoning that partner is less likely to get excited about this response and give me a raise. I really don't want to play 2 or 3nt with these cards.

 

I do not double the 2H bid - I'm thankful I don't have to play this misfit.

[han]

I don't remember partner's hand exactly, but his shape was 3145, he had 17 HCP's and the king of spades.

 

I bid 1NT, and then doubled 2H. But it wasn't over, the complete auction was:

 

(1H)-Dbl-pass-1NT

(2D)-Dbl-(2H)-Dbl

(pass)-pass-(Rdbl)-pass

(2S)-Dbl-all pass.

 

They found their only fit, spades. We could have set it if partner had lead a spade, but he didn't, and they made their game (forgot to tell, it was a team-game). 3NT our way would have been down 1.

 

After the hand my partner got a bit upset, and said that both 1NT and double were absolutely wrong. Since he had about 17000 masterpoints (ACBL), about 100 times as much as I had, I didn't argue with him. Later he explained that 1NT is not correct since he would play me for more. Both pass and 2D were possible according to him. Once I bid 1NT, I could never double 2H since that would confirm the values I had shown.

 

Interesting hand.

[mike777]

They found their only fit, spades. We could have set it if partner had lead a spade, but he didn't, and they made their game (forgot to tell, it was a team-game). 3NT our way would have been down 1.

 

After the hand my partner got a bit upset, and said that both 1NT and double were absolutely wrong. Since he had about 17000 masterpoints (ACBL), about 100 times as much as I had, I didn't argue with him. Later he explained that 1NT is not correct since he would play me for more. Both pass and 2D were possible according to him. Once I bid 1NT, I could never double 2H since that would confirm the values I had shown.

 

Interesting hand.

If P has 17 and thinks you have full values for 1nt, yes? Why did p not lead trump to play hand in NT? Where are opp getting tricks except with cross ruff?

 

OH well!

[han]

I agree Mike, I think that people with 17000 masterpoints make silly mistakes too, but that wasn't really the point of the story.