Disaster important team event

[mike777]

An old buddy just emailed this one from his important last match.

 

If you win this one your partner will become Platinum Life Master. For non USA players that is something for players with over 10,000 pts.

 

AT8XX=QXX=A9XX=X

 

What is your opening bid?

 

If 1S then:

1S=2D

?

 

If pass then P opens 1D.

[scoob]

i probably wouldn't open this as dealer, but assuming i did, i will raise to 3♦ and pass any non-forcing bids

[Chamaco]

An old buddy just emailed this one from his important last match.

 

If you win this one your partner will become Platinum Life Master. For non USA players that is something for players with over 10,000 pts.

 

AT8XX=QXX=A9XX=X

 

What is your opening bid?

 

If 1S then:

1S=2D

?

 

If pass then P opens 1D.

Open 1S in 1st or 3rd seat, not 2nd seat, but I am playing Precision.

 

Playing 2/1 or something like that, it depends what standard pard expects from my openers: with a familiar pard, I'd open anyway at white, 1st seat, or at any vuln, 3rd seat, but never 2nd seat, at any vuln.

 

Under the above conditions, if I get to open 1S, I will not raise pard, it des promise xtras.

 

1S:2D

2S

I do not raise 3D with a minimum opener, the raise of a minor shows extras, not only support.

 

Now if my pard bids clubs, probably the hand is better oriented for NT, otherwise, I'll bid 4D.

Pard will understand from my delayed support that I have a hand best-suited for playing in D, with nothing in clubs, but without extras (with extras I'd have bid 3D).

He still has room to investigate with cues or any RKCB you have agreed.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

If pass and pard opens 1D, normal 1S response (where's the trick? :rolleyes: )

[hrothgar]

What system am I playing?

 

I'll assume 2/1 since its most common amoung tournament players in the US.

 

Pass as Dealer. Too weak to open.

 

Rebid 1♠ over a 1♦ opening.

(The Spade suit is too weak for a fit showing jump)

[Walddk]

I wouldn't open, but if I did I can't see anything wrong with 3♦. Bridge is too difficult for me if I can't show 5 spades and 4 diamonds (occasionally even 3 diamonds).

 

No, it does not show extras in my book to raise responder's suit as cheaply as possible.

 

It's, excuse me, daft if I must rebid 2♠ with that hand.

 

Roland

[Chamaco]

No, it does not show extras in my book to raise responder's suit as cheaply as possible.

 

Roland

This is an important point to agree with pard.

 

In Mike Lawrence style, it DOES show a non minimum hand, not necessarily a reverse, but a GOOD FULL opener, let's say a 6-losers hand.

According to ML, subminimum opener cannot raise the minor to the 3-level even with good support (you might want to discuss this with him since I read inn your previous posts he will be your teammate soon :rolleyes: ).To be fair, I think ML would not open this hand ! ;)

 

Of course, ML style is not the only one, but it seems quite widespread in the US, although it differs significantly from Hardy's style and from european styles such as the French 5cM Standard.

[Walddk]

According to ML, subminimum opener cannot raise the minor to the 3-level even with good support (you might want to discuss this with him since I read inn your previous posts he will be your teammate soon :rolleyes: ).To be fair, I think ML would not open this hand ! ;)

I am sure Mike Lawrence wouldn't mind a raise to 3♦ if I really had an opener. Remember that I said I wouldn't open the hand. Give me

 

AQxxx

Qxx

Axxx

x

 

then ML will surely raise diamonds too. But I will remember to ask him in Edinburgh on May 22nd. Let me bet 5 cokes in advance. Taken Mauro?

 

Roland

[HeartA]

An old buddy just emailed this one from his important last match.

 

If you win this one your partner will become Platinum Life Master. For non USA players that is something for players with over 10,000 pts.

 

AT8XX=QXX=A9XX=X

 

What is your opening bid?

 

If 1S then:

1S=2D

?

 

If pass then P opens 1D.

Raise to 3♦, assuming I opened (I wouldn't).

[Chamaco]

I am sure Mike Lawrence wouldn't mind a raise to 3♦ if I really had an opener. Remember that I said I wouldn't open the hand. Give me

 

AQxxx

Qxx

Axxx

x

 

then ML will surely raise diamonds too. But I will remember to ask him in Edinburgh on May 22nd. Let me bet 5 cokes in advance. Taken Mauro?

 

Roland

Hehe Roland, I am always up for small bets

(hmmm maybe 5 Cokes is a big bet ? Well, I am lucky I am not betting against Ron, I'd spend a fortune in 5 of his beloved wine bottles !!),

even when I suspect I 'll lose ! :rolleyes:

 

This weekend I'll lookup in ML book examples (I do not have the books here with me) and post the quote: even if I am wrong, I'll have refreshed my study ! ;)

 

But also, after asking his choice over the AQxXX=QXX=A9XX=X hand (the one in your own example), ask ML the following:

IF he opens AT8XX=QXX=A9XX=X (the original posted hand), after he opened, would he raise to 3D immediately ?

(he will probably say he would not open, but then you should insist asking him what he would do after he HAD to open with gun pointed on his head)

[han]

AT8XX=QXX=A9XX=X

 

What is your opening bid?

 

I would open 1S, but this depends on partnership agreements.

 

 

If 1S then:

1S=2D

?

 

If pass then P opens 1D.

 

Over 1S-2D it again depends on partnership agreements. I would bid 2S (denying a 6th spade in my style), since 3D would show a better hand.

 

Over 1D, it once again depends on your agreements. I would bid 2S, a support jump shift. This shows exactly invitational values, and typically 5 spades and 4 diamonds.

[han]

I am dissapointed to see that some well-respected posters give the "correct answers" to these questions without knowing the partnership agreements.

[Fluffy]

pass and then bid 1♠, my system also says rebid 3♦ with 4 cards.

[mike777]

I am dissapointed to see that some well-respected posters give the "correct answers" to these questions without knowing the partnership agreements.

Thanks for great responses so far:

 

1) Playing 2/1, this is a 2/1 forum I assume.

2) If you pass, you can play 2s response to mean whatever it means, just please explain for the rest of us. I notice someone says 2s=fit and invite but another says spades too weak for that bid? If fit bid then what is your bid plan to avoid disaster over most common rebids?

3) If opening and you are rebidding 3D what is your bid plan to avoid disaster over most common rebids?

4) If pass and rebid 1s then assume p rebids 1nt, often 11-14, what is plan to avoid disaster now?

5) Posted this hand also to see how many open, how many pass, and if pass or open how you folks plan to bid over most common rebids. thanks.

[han]

I am dissapointed to see that some well-respected posters give the "correct answers" to these questions without knowing the partnership agreements.

Thanks for great responses so far:

 

1) Playing 2/1, this is a 2/1 forum I assume.

2) If you pass, you can play 2s response to mean whatever it means, just please explain for the rest of us. I notice someones says 2s=fit and invite but another says spades too weak for that bid? If fit bid then what is your bid plan to avoid disaster over most common rebids?

3) If opening and you are rebidding 3D what is your bid plan to avoid disaster over most common rebids?

4) If pass and rebid 1s then assume p rebids 1nt, often 11-14, what is plan to avoid disaster now?

5) Posted this hand also to see how many open, how many pass, thanks.

 

1) Yes, this is a sayc and 2/1 forum, but there have been many threads about opening light in this forum. As far as I am concerned, opening light is still a partnership issue.

2) Most common rebids by opener are pass (easy) 3D (easy, I pass) and some game bid (easy too). If the opponents come in then I leave all decisions up to partner. It is true that my spades could be better, but I do have 5-4 shape and exactly the right strength. This bid gives us the best change to find a light spade game. Over a 2NT rebid I would bid 3H, patterning out.

3) Over 3H (primarily asking for a club stopper) I would bid 3S, denying such a stopper. Other bids are easier to handle. I'd like to remark that Rodwell raises (3C instead of 3D, after which partner can ask for shortness) work well here.

4) I don't like this start, I'm glad I had 2S available.

5) To clarify: I open if agreed to open light, otherwise I pass.

[hrothgar]

I am dissapointed to see that some well-respected posters give the "correct answers" to these questions without knowing the partnership agreements.

Thanks for great responses so far:

 

1) Playing 2/1, this is a 2/1 forum I assume.

2) If you pass, you can play 2s response to mean whatever it means, just please explain for the rest of us. I notice someone says 2s=fit and invite but another says spades too weak for that bid? If fit bid then what is your bid plan to avoid disaster over most common rebids?

3) If opening and you are rebidding 3D what is your bid plan to avoid disaster over most common rebids?

4) If pass and rebid 1s then assume p rebids 1nt, often 11-14, what is plan to avoid disaster now?

5) Posted this hand also to see how many open, how many pass, and if pass or open how you folks plan to bid over most common rebids. thanks.

If the auction starts:

 

P - 1♦ - 1NT, I plan to rebid 3♦

This (should) describe my hand nicely...

 

As I commented earlier, my hand has the right shape and strength for an immediate 2♠ response. However, I think that the Spade suit is too ratty. Ideally, I'd prefer to hold ♠KQ873 or ♠AJ943 for this bid. Fit jumps in an uncontested auction need to be reasonably well disciplined if partner is going to be able to properly evaluate his hand.

 

If I were forced to open this handy, I'd happily raise 2♦ to 3♦. Quite frankly, if there is a "disaster" its the fault of the crappy opening rather than a sound raise.

[Guest Jlall]

Opening is fine and I would expect many world class players to open this hand. I have recently made the committment to start opening these 5431 10 counts with good honor location and no rebid problems because I noticed most of the players I respect most doing it, but I always chicken out :rolleyes: Anyways, if I opened I would certainly raise 2D to 3D. Mauro says this shows a good full opener, which I have in support of diamonds. If partner wants to bid a slam thats great! in fact if my hearts and clubs were reversed I would splinter, but I don't want to go past 3N. Over partner's 3H bid I would bid 4D. Over 3N I would pass, over 3S I would bid 4S.

 

Having not opened (my preference but thats just style) I would make a fit showing jump to 2S. I don't think the spade suit is too ratty, if partner has 3 I want to play in spades even opposite 432. I would consider this a near perfect fit jump (right shape, and 80 % of my HCP in my suits). If partner bids 2N i'll bid 3D. If he bids 3C i'll bid 3D. If he bids 3D ill pass. If he bids 3H i'll bid 4H (pattern). If he bids 3S i'll bid 4S.

[inquiry]

I open 1♠, gladly. Not a surprise to those of you who know me. Too weak? This is a power house (10 hpc, 4 control points, 13 distributional points for 27 Zar points. Two more than needed to open with the master suit for us Zar Zealots).

 

What do I bid after partner bids 2♦? Now I like my hand even more: I get to add two additional points for the singleton club, and one additional point for the diamond ACE. I am actually getting giddy with excitement. My "sound" 27 point opener has mushroomed to not 27 ZAR points, but now 30 ZAR points. A full "king" more than a minimum 1♠ opener. Here I would consider bidding 3♦, not because I only have 5♠ and not because I do have 4♦, but because I have extra values. However, I think I would rather pattern out here, so I will bid (gasp) 2♥, planning on raising diamonds next, even if partner raises spades or hearts.

 

Yes, now you see why my results are all over the place. BTW, this 2♥ bid is only made with a partner who understands or is at least tolerance of my quarks. Otherwise, I would go with the more descriptive 3♦ bid...after all, i am a full king in value more than a minimum opening bid in support of diamonds.

 

The 2♥ bid also is useful if partner bids 2NT (still game force), as now I can bid 3♦.. completing my "acccurate discription", warnng parnter off 3NT with only one club stopper, and not promsing extra value (his 2NT rebid lowers my expectations).

 

Ben

[mike777]

Opening is fine and I would expect many world class players to open this hand.

 

Having not opened (my preference but thats just style)

LOL

I guess you were not teammate at other table at this match with this pair. Do not blame you since these guys needed to win this hand to finish second not first :rolleyes:

 

Perhaps you were on the winning team.

[han]

Does anybody play these Rodwell raises over 2/1 auctions?

[hrothgar]

Quick comment:

 

Players who advocate opening this hand playing 2/1 might wish to consider the following:

 

"Bridge World Standard encapsultates common American expert practices, determined by polls, as a set of partnership agreements (and, where there is no consensus, non-agreements). It is used as a framework for problems in the Master Solvers’ Club, by impromptu partnerships, and as a basis for discussion by those who wish to formulate their own system"

 

The Bridge World offers the following hand as a representative example of a minimum opening bid playing BWS:

 

♠ AQxxx

♥ Axx

♦ Jxxx

♣ x

 

By my reckoning (and Edgar Kaplan's K+R algorithm) this hand is worth 12.6 HCP. In contrast, the hand that we're all discussing is "only" worth 12.2

 

In short, if you're playing "vanilla" 2/1, this ain't an opening bid... Clearly, if you're playing Precision or MOSCITO this is worth opening. If you're playing Kaplan-Sheinwold you also get to open - you have 2.5 quick tricks and you get to open light in the majors. However, if you're playing 2/1 you need to take your lumps and pass...

[hrothgar]

In Mike Lawrence style, it DOES show a non minimum hand, not necessarily a reverse, but a GOOD FULL opener, let's say a 6-losers hand. According to ML, subminimum opener cannot raise the minor to the 3-level even with good support...

I have Axxx in support for partner...

I have a side suit singleton

I have two Aces...

 

and I am supposed to rebid 2♠ because I am not strong enough to show support?

 

As Ben has already noted, this hand improved dramatically following partner's 2♦ response. If I'm not strong enough to support partner then I sure as hell should have passed to begin with.

[mike777]

Quick comment:

 

Players who advocate opening this hand playing 2/1 might wish to consider the following:

 

"Bridge World Standard encapsultates common American expert practices, determined by polls, as a set of partnership agreements (and, where there is no consensus, non-agreements). It is used as a framework for problems in the Master Solvers’ Club, by impromptu partnerships, and as a basis for discussion by those who wish to formulate their own system"

 

The Bridge World offers the following hand as a representative example of a minimum opening bid playing BWS:

 

♠ AQxxx

♥ Axx

♦ Jxxx

♣ x

 

By my reckoning (and Edgar Kaplan's K+R algorithm) this hand is worth 12.6 HCP. In contrast, the hand that we're all discussing is "only" worth 12.2

 

In short, if you're playing "vanilla" 2/1, this ain't an opening bid... Clearly, if you're playing Precision or MOSCITO this is worth opening. If you're playing Kaplan-Sheinwold you also get to open - you have 2.5 quick tricks and you get to open light in the majors. However, if you're playing 2/1 you need to take your lumps and pass...

Very interesting, thanks.

 

BTW I know nothing about fit showing bids but if:

P=1D

2S=2NT

I would guess the best use of 2nt is some sort of asking for shortness bid rather than natural but perhaps not?

 

On other fit showing auctions does responder then bid natural or make some sort of asking bid?

[Guest Jlall]

Opening is fine and I would expect many world class players to open this hand.

 

Having not opened (my preference but thats just style)

LOL

I guess you were not teammate at other table at this match with this pair. Do not blame you since these guys needed to win this hand to finish second not first :rolleyes:

 

Perhaps you were on the winning team.

What event was this from?

[luke warm]

i would not open, but if i did open 1s i'd then raise diamonds... i agree with roland and others, if i can't support on this (especially in a game force auction), the bidding becomes too stilted for me...

[mike777]

i would not open, but if i did open 1s i'd then raise diamonds... i agree with roland and others, if i can't support on this (especially in a game force auction), the bidding becomes too stilted for me...

 

Update, upon reflection too many rebid choices after:

P=1D

1S=?

 

will post hands later and let you folks bid in your favourite 2/1 style.

 

Do wish to see how many open or pass or play jump fit after pass, thanks.