Rebid of own suit at acol

[Tim Ocean]

Does rebid of own suit at the lowest level mean at least 5 cards in that suit in acol? For exampe

1♥-1♠

2♥

Or should I have at least 6 cards?

[eagles123]

should be 6 here, because if you have 5 in that scenario you'll either have a balanced hand (yes you should open 1N with a 5 card major), or a side 4 card suit you can bid, or you'll have 4 card spade support.

 

it's different if it goes lets say 1H - 2D because here you might have to rebid 2H with a 5 card suit if you're for example 4522 12 count as you're not strong enough to reverse into 2S

[Tim Ocean]

should be 6 here, because if you have 5 in that scenario you'll either have a balanced hand (yes you should open 1N with a 5 card major)

Should I open 1NT with 12-14 HCP, balanced hand and a 5 card major? :o Even if its a good 5 card major? ;>

[eagles123]

Should I open 1NT with 12-14 HCP, balanced hand and a 5 card major? :o Even if its a good 5 card major? ;>

 

in my opinion yes, unless the hand is truly exceptional - xx AKQJX Qxx xxx for example I would open 1H playing acol, but for 95% of hands with 12-14 and a 5 card major I would recommend opening 1N

 

It's a hotly debated thing, others I have no doubt will disagree with me, it's just my opinion :)

[Cyberyeti]

It shows 6 if as eagles says you open 1N with 5M332 as I think you should. Basically unless you want to treat it as a 6 card suit like the hand eagles stated, open 1N.

 

Note this is only the case in this precise auction where the response is the suit above, 1♦-1♠-2♦ is 6♦ or 5♦/4♥

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

you asked for a text book about Acol, ..., basically pick one, and stick with the choosen

variant.

I used to play, that the rebid only showed 5+, it worked, it was simple, rebidding

a suit makes the suit 1 card longer. It is not really obvious, why it should go from

4+ cards to 6+ cards in the given seq., when all other seq. involving openers rebid

show only 5+.

 

I would try to avoid making the opening bid a judgement question, and this is is, what it

gets to it, if you bring suit quality in it.

 

If you dont want to open 1NT with 5332 and a 5 card major, but want the 6+ meaning in the

given seq., you can bid 2m with a 3 carder,

this is not really Acol philosophy, but also not completly foreign, inventing a minor on the

3 level is a common method.

But before you decide what to do, go with my first remark, pick a text book, and stick with

the suggested structure, ... and before you do this find a partner, agreeing on the text book

should be your first partnership task.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Cyberyeti]

Hi,

 

you asked for a text book about Acol, ..., basically pick one, and stick with the choosen

variant.

I used to play, that the rebid only showed 5+, it worked, it was simple, rebidding

a suit makes the suit 1 card longer. It is not really obvious, why it should go from

4+ cards to 6+ cards in the given seq., when all other seq. involving openers rebid

show only 5+.

 

I would try to avoid making the opening bid a judgement question, and this is is, what it

gets to it, if you bring suit quality in it.

 

If you dont want to open 1NT with 5332 and a 5 card major, but want the 6+ meaning in the

given seq., you can bid 2m with a 3 carder,

this is not really Acol philosophy, but also not completly foreign, inventing a minor on the

3 level is a common method.

But before you decide what to do, go with my first remark, pick a text book, and stick with

the suggested structure, ... and before you do this find a partner, agreeing on the text book

should be your first partnership task.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

The rebid only shows 5+ but you haven't bid 2m so on what hand can you have exactly 5 ? must be a 5332, so if you open 1N on that it shows 6.

 

I agree with the rest of your post.

[helene_t]

Even if you don't always open 1NT with 5M332 hands, the 2♥ rebid shows 6. With 5332 you either rebid 1NT (you may agree to play this as 12-17 rather than 15-17) or you rebid a 3-card minor, or you raise spades with 3-card support.

 

As a general rule, you should try to avoid bidding a 5-card suit twice unless partner has somehow indicated tolerance for it (by making a t/o double or by rebidding notrumps). Open 1NT with any 5332, and also with 5422 if the 5-card suit is a minor. To find a 5-3 fit, you either make a bid in a new suit thereby indicating that your first suit was a 5-card suit, or you rely on partner to show his 3-card support.

[ahydra]

Even if you don't always open 1NT with 5M332 hands, the 2♥ rebid shows 6. With 5332 you either rebid 1NT (you may agree to play this as 12-17 rather than 15-17) or you rebid a 3-card minor, or you raise spades with 3-card support.

 

As a general rule, you should try to avoid bidding a 5-card suit twice unless partner has somehow indicated tolerance for it (by making a t/o double or by rebidding notrumps). Open 1NT with any 5332, and also with 5422 if the 5-card suit is a minor. To find a 5-3 fit, you either make a bid in a new suit thereby indicating that your first suit was a 5-card suit, or you rely on partner to show his 3-card support.

 

This is certainly a playable style, but I don't think it's standard Acol style. I think particularly the rebidding 3c minors is more of an American thing.

 

FWIW my ex-partner and I played 1H-1S; 1NT = 12-17 5H332, with 2C checkback ->

2D! weak NT with 3S

2H! weak NT no 3S

and others as for regular 15-17 checkback.

 

ahydra

[Vampyr]

This is certainly a playable style, but I don't think it's standard Acol style. I think particularly the rebidding 3c minors is more of an American thing.

 

FWIW my ex-partner and I played 1H-1S; 1NT = 12-17 5H332, with 2C checkback ->

2D! weak NT with 3S

2H! weak NT no 3S

and others as for regular 15-17 checkback.

 

ahydra

 

Just tonight I played against someone who played a wide-ranging 1NT rebid. What are the advantages of this style?

[helene_t]

Just tonight I played against someone who played a wide-ranging 1NT rebid. What are the advantages of this style?

If you open 1NT you can easily miss a heart fit.

 

If you rebid 2♥ you can be playing in a 5-1 fit.

 

If you rebid 2♣ you can be playing 3♣ in a 3-4 fit, or 2♣ in a 3-3 fit on a very bad day.

 

If you raise on a 3-card spades, partner may overbid since he thinks (or at least have to cater to) that you either have good shape or 15-16 balanced.

-------

So you rebid 1NT. Partner can check back and discover that you have a 5♥332 minimum, in which case you usually play 2♥, but you can often avoid the 5-1 fit since partner does have other options. With a 5-card diamonds he can pass the 2♦ answer to the checkback. With a 5-card spades he can bid 2♠. With a 6-card clubs he can bid 3♣. With 6-7 points he can pass 1NT.

[helene_t]

FWIW my ex-partner and I played 1H-1S; 1NT = 12-17 5H332, with 2C checkback ->

2D! weak NT with 3S

2H! weak NT no 3S

Probably better to reverse these so that responder can pass the 2♦ bid 4144 and similar.

[The_Badger]

This is an interesting post on the forum, and as usual as brought some varied replies.

 

I played against many a good partnership using Acol in my teens (late 1970s/1980s) and rebidding 1NT with a 12-16 count was de rigueur as invariably all were playing the Crowhurst [checkback 2♣] convention. I can't recall any specific hands, but many featured an opener with a 5M rebidding 1NT as it was 'just not Acol, even acceptable' opening 1NT with a 5M. How times change!

 

As for rebidding 3 card minors at the 2 level, amongst my bridge library there was an Acol bidding book of the late 1960s (?) by the late, great Terence Reese that advocated this practice. I thought it strange as I was always of the opinion, and other Acol books that I have read since advocated this, that any 2 level rebid should always have 4m. However, the no-trump structure might have been variable in Reese's day: 12-14 nv; 16-18 vul.

[nekthen]

I open 1N with a 5 card major and 5332 or even 5224 (4 card minor only)

 

I play responder's 3c as puppet Stayman GF. So you do not miss 4M where it appears to be better than 3N.

[Tramticket]

I will usually open 1NT with a five card major, but if the major is strong (three of the top five honours) I will open the suit. Playing this approach the sequence in the opening post will show a six card suit, or failing that a good quality five card suit that will play well opposite small doubleton.

 

My wide-ranging 1NT rebid is 15-18. I am happy opening 1NT with balanced hands in the the weak NT range.

[Tramticket]

I play responder's 3c as puppet Stayman GF. So you do not miss 4M where it appears to be better than 3N.

 

Yes, I do that.

[Cyberyeti]

Just tonight I played against someone who played a wide-ranging 1NT rebid. What are the advantages of this style?

 

I hate the 12-16 or 17 style of 1N rebid in a weak no trump system, it seems a partial waste with not a lot of gain, just open 1N but the wide range range rebid is a fine idea, we play 15-bad 19 so there is no gap between 1N rebid and 2N opener, meaning we can use the 2N rebid for something else (unbalanced GF solving the "death hand" problem).

[Tramticket]

I hate the 12-16 or 17 style of 1N rebid in a weak no trump system, it seems a partial waste with not a lot of gain, just open 1N but the wide range range rebid is a fine idea, we play 15-bad 19 so there is no gap between 1N rebid and 2N opener, meaning we can use the 2N rebid for something else (unbalanced GF solving the "death hand" problem).

 

Interesting. we use a similar range but play 2NT as 19-20 (with the advantage that we can treat it as 100% forcing). Our 2NT via the multi shows 21-22, meaning that we never have to play 2NT opposite a Yarborough (we find we pick up a lot of swings by not needing to open 2NT on a 20 count).

[msjennifer]

A 2 Heart rebid does not” guarantee “six hearts in Acol original.Reese and others made many modifications in that system,A book titled “Acol in the nineties” is also available.However,the system faded later on and is hardly played anywhere except in England these days.

[eagles123]

in my opinion the wide ranging 1N rebid is one of the worst conventions i've ever come across.

[P_Marlowe]

in my opinion the wide ranging 1N rebid is one of the worst conventions i've ever come across.

12-17 or 15-18/19?

12-17 I am willing to agree, that in a weak nt context, this is not really useful.

15-18/19 I am disagreeing, you dont give up much, the follow up structure is not much more complex

than simple check back / NMF, and you free up a 2NT rebid to show some hand types that are hard to

show otherwise. It also protects light responses, since responder does not have to fear the 2NT rebid

by opener, if he responds with only 4+ HCP.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[helene_t]

in my opinion the wide ranging 1N rebid is one of the worst conventions i've ever come across.

Why?

[eagles123]

Why?

 

because especially at MP which I usually play (although I don't play weak nt) I think it's solving a very minor problem to create a much bigger one. For example let's say it goes 1d - 1h - 1n uncontested. the 1n showing 15-18 what is responder meant to do with a random 8 count? with a 15-17 easy enough to pass at MP, but here partner could have 18 so can't really pass. Likewise you are opener, partner invites and you have 16 - do you accept, it's lower end of the range after all?

[helene_t]

because especially at MP which I usually play (although I don't play weak nt) I think it's solving a very minor problem to create a much bigger one. For example let's say it goes 1d - 1h - 1n uncontested. the 1n showing 15-18 what is responder meant to do with a random 8 count? with a 15-17 easy enough to pass at MP, but here partner could have 18 so can't really pass. Likewise you are opener, partner invites and you have 16 - do you accept, it's lower end of the range after all?

Ah right, you were referring to 15-18 with not necessarily five hearts. Yes that doesn't sound too great.

[Cyberyeti]

because especially at MP which I usually play (although I don't play weak nt) I think it's solving a very minor problem to create a much bigger one. For example let's say it goes 1d - 1h - 1n uncontested. the 1n showing 15-18 what is responder meant to do with a random 8 count? with a 15-17 easy enough to pass at MP, but here partner could have 18 so can't really pass. Likewise you are opener, partner invites and you have 16 - do you accept, it's lower end of the range after all?

 

Yes you invite with 8.

 

If you have 5, you play 1N rather than 2N opposite 18.

 

No you don't accept with 16 unless you really like it.