What do you open?

[han]

I voted 1C, but have no strong preference between 1C and 2C. I don't think that misguiding partner is such a problem, since you will be the one making the final decision at some point.

 

I don't think that preemption over 1C or 2C makes a big difference, but their bidding over 2C is less well defined, which should be an advantage to us. They may not know whether 6 of a red suit is a good sac.

 

I think that it is easier for partner to say something over 1C than over 2C, so that's why I start with 1C.

[HeartA]

I think that it is easier for partner to say something over 1C than over 2C, so that's why I start with 1C.

What do you want pd to say? To show you a long ♥/♦ suit? I think it is the opposite, it's easier for pd to show you the right Ace if you open 2♣.

[awm]

Seems like a pretty good hand for 3NT -- asking for specific aces.

 

One poster suggested 4NT (same deal) but isn't it unfortunate if partner bids 5♦ (diamond ace only) and you get to play 6♣ down one?

 

Of course, it would be nice to be able to check for the spade queen too, but it seems unrealistic to be able to do this. Even with a relay system or the like, you're not going to be unobstructed with this hand very often.

 

Without the 3NT asking bid, I'd go with 2♣ and rebid 4♣ which should set the suit and request a cuebid from partner. I'm not eager to open 1♣ and rebid spades, because my partners invariably keep correcting with ♠Qxxx and a club void. Fake minor suit bids to force game are common enough, but I don't really like faking a major that partner could have support for.

[the hog]

Interesting post AWM. Ron Klinger has played a 3NT opening asking for specific aces for many years now. It does not come up often, but this hand is probably a suitable one for it. If partner bids 4H, 5S would be asking for 0/Q/K of S in that order. The question is is it worth having a convention for a hand that crops up every 2 years?

[awm]

Hard to say what the right use of 3NT opening is. From my poll (so far anyway) on the non-natural systems forum, gambling seems to be by far the most popular. My personal experiences with opening gambling 3NT have been very bad, almost without exception.

 

I guess the main issues with this, or any convention are:

 

(1) Does the convention give you a good result on hands that are otherwise difficult to bid?

 

-- Most of the hands where this 3NT opening would come up ARE in fact hard to bid. You normally have a strong suit, not many losers, not many high card points. If you open anything at a low level you will get all sorts of interference, and it will be hard to set the suit effectively and to find out what you want to know.

 

(2) Does the convention come up frequently enough to justify it, as opposed to other possible uses for the bid?

 

-- Surprisingly, I have had several hands in the past year where this 3NT opening would appear useful. It's not a frequent event, but neither are any of the other uses I've tried or seen suggested for a 3NT opening. My guess is that wanting to ask for specific aces is about as common as a 4-minor opening (namyats 3NT) or a gambling 3NT, and more common than 25-27 balanced. Then again this is VERY hard to measure. And I think this convention does a lot better on point (1) than namyats or gambling.

 

Jury's still out on this one, of course, but so far it seems like a good idea. Ron Klinger usually plays methods for a reason (and isn't held back by the innate conservatism of acbl since he plays in Australia).

[cf_John0]

With Pre/Blue-Pd,I'll bid 1C;otherwise open 2C,I must hear from my PD.

[Double !]

This hand, and some others that have been posted over time, have suggested a minor gap but still a gap in modern bidding systems, to wit: how to inquire about specific critical cards. On the AKX, x, void, 9 solid hand, you need two of several critical cards, S-Q, H-A or AK, H-A& D-A i.e. 2 cards to cover your two losers. What specific tooks other than elaborate systems (vulnerable to pre-emption) do most of us have available to ask for such specific cards? Many posts so far have involved either something slow and investigative (and potentially pre-emptable) or simple bashing under various philosophies.

 

This posted hand and topic reminds me of a hand I held at the NABCs in Toronto a few years ago: S-void, H-KQJTxxxx, D-KQJTx, C-void. A freak hand? Yes! but they crop up every once in a while. During ensuing discussion regarding how one might bid this everyday 8-5-0-0 hand, I received the response "just keep bidding until someone says 'pass' " from a world class player. Thanks a lot.

 

What methods do you people out there have to deal with such hands that are still somewhat integrated into your primary system? (Please don't tell me to not worry about such hands because they are so infrequent. This initial post says that the topic is worthy of discussion.) There is, I suspect, an option using a more natural system, at least for those playing openings of both 2C & 2D as strong and forcing.

 

(To any of you who attended the 1970 Summer NABCs in Boston, the idea of asking partner "you got any Queens?"...."no, go fish" is not an option.)

 

Thank you in advance for what I know will be thoughtful and erudite answers. They are appreciated.

[Guest Jlall]

This posted hand and topic reminds me of a hand I held at the NABCs in Toronto a few years ago: S-void, H-KQJTxxxx, D-KQJTx, C-void. A freak hand? Yes! but they crop up every once in a while. During ensuing discussion regarding how one might bid this everyday 8-5-0-0 hand, I received the response "just keep bidding until someone says 'pass' " from a world class player. Thanks a lot.

This is EXCELLENT advice. The whole point of that hand is just to buy the contract. If you buy it for 4H and are cold for 6H you are probably fine since likely they have a profitable save. It doesn't matter what level you buy it for as long as you buy it

[Double !]

JUSTIN:

 

Thank you for your response, it is very appreciated.

 

The world class player's response was duly appreciated, and heaven knows that my bidding strategies in an attempt to just buy certain hands leave a lot to be desired. But, knowing that my partner and I didn't have the tools installed yet to clearly ask for the 2 key aces, and not really wanting to get into a swinging auction where my ODR was so skewed, rightly or wrongly, in an attempt to shut up the opps, I simply opened 4H. Making 6, P had 1 red ace and a smattering of cards. Half of the field in my section were in 6, half were not. Average minus. Kept getting a lot of those that day, so it seemed.

 

Sigh. If only we had been playing the old (and I mean old) Schenken 2 Diamond opener....this was an ideal hand for it, but it drifted into obscurity due to insufficient frequency of use. But one hand does not a case for a bid or a convention make. An interesting issue considering some other threads such as the best use of an opening 3NT bid. Not suggesting that asking for specific cards is the best use for 3NT, but how many times have people been frustrated due to inability to inquire for specific individual cards in partner's hand due to lack of a method, and then have either bashed the hand (aka: "played partner for a little something given the bidding so far", or opened some strong, forcing bid with the hope that some additional information might emerge to help locate key holdings, all the while assuming (hoping?) that the opps sut up during the bidding? Anyway, sincere thanks to all who are responding.

[bridge2k]

2C open. If possible, I can use exclusive RKC in later aution.

[P_Marlowe]

This hand, and some others that have been posted over time, have suggested a minor gap but still a gap in modern bidding systems, to wit:  how to inquire about specific critical cards.  On the AKX, x, void, 9 solid hand, you need two of several critical cards,   S-Q,  H-A or AK,  H-A& D-A  i.e. 2 cards to cover your two losers.   What specific tooks other than elaborate systems (vulnerable to pre-emption) do most of us have available to ask for such specific cards?  Many posts so far have involved either something slow and investigative (and potentially pre-emptable) or simple bashing under various philosophies.

Hi,

 

if you really need an specific card ask, have a look

at Power Acol, a system developed by Ron Klinger or Power.

 

In his book about Power Acol, he describes a method called

Roman Key Card Control Ask, which can be incorporated into

any natural system and which allows you to ask for specific

holdings in a suit.

This method can replace the normal Cue Bid / RKCB Slam

Bidding Method, so that the frequency of occurence is also

fairly high, although you will not need the specific card asking

part very often.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[jahol]

I think that the story like 1club....... 2clubs..... 3clubs......... 4clubs....... DOUBLE.... two overtricks.... is just an illusion (by the way, four clubs doubled +2 is a quite bad result in comparison with 6 clubs just made, and four clubs doubled +3 is even worse in comparison with 7clubs just made - of course, you may redouble...but you will not play the contract then).

 

A much more probable sequences may be 1club-3diam-double-5diam-??? or 1club-2hearts-double-4hearts-???. What the 1 club openers are going to do now (and then... :) )?

[mikestar]

... Jury's still out on this one, of course, but so far it seems like a good idea. Ron Klinger usually plays methods for a reason (and isn't held back by the innate conservatism of acbl since he plays in Australia).

By the way, 3N opening asking for specific aces is ACBL GCC-legal and has been for many years. Item #4 under "Opening Bids" in the GCC:

 

STRENGTH SHOWING OPENING AT THE TWO LEVEL OR HIGHER

that asks for aces, kings, queens, singletons, voids or trump quality and

responses thereto.

[bearmum]

Interesting post AWM. Ron Klinger has played a 3NT opening asking for specific aces for many years now. It does not come up often, but this hand is probably a suitable one for it. If partner bids 4H, 5S would be asking for 0/Q/K of S in that order. The question is is it worth having a convention for a hand that crops up every 2 years?

Interesting Hog - MANY MANY years ago my P and I played Schenken (a really simple strong 1 Club system), and that had an opening 2♦ asking for SPECIFIC Aces ( where you could show more than one too :D) --- then rest of bids asked for kings and after that queens .

Now we got to use it a occasionally BUT when we did we normally get a good score because:

 

1 we got to a few GS which others missed because we KNEW that we had the right cards (and therefore certain it was there)

2 we stayed OUT of slam because we knew we had the WRONG cards (even MORE critical)

 

The best thing was it was EASY to remember 2♦ as ace asking :)

[Double !]

Glad you mentioned Schenken 2 diamonds-a very interesting and helpful bid for the freaky hands that went the way of the dinosaur.

I still have the book.

 

Can you think of some way to incorporate that response system into some variation of Benjamin 2-bids (yes, I like them) or even improve on it? Would be VERY interested in suggestions.

 

Thanks

[joker_gib]

2♦ as ace asking :)

Still used nowadays in french standard !

 

2♦ = GF any hand

 

Responses are something like :

 

2♥ = 0-7H no ace

2♠= 1 major ace.

2NT = 8H+ or 2 kings no ace

3♣ =♣A

3♦ = ♦A

3♥= suit by KQ at least fifth no ace

3♠ = Same in spade

3NT = 2 Aces

 

 

Alain

[Double !]

Alain

 

Thank you so much for you description of the 2D structure in SEF. (I tried to write en Francais but can't spell anything anymore.) The reason this issue is important to me was described in my previous posting. However, I also happen to be one of the few people in my area who actually like and/or use Benjamin 2-bids. One of the major problems in most american-style bidding are the hands that one might wish to open 1M and then rebid 3M forcing. Used to be but hasn't been longer treated as being forcing for several decades. Now one often has to invent some sort of jump-shift or artificial relay, potentially creating distortions that are difficult to recover from. I suspect that Schenken and, later, Precision club systems had the issue of resolving some of these types of hands among their purposes. It is also possible to go in the opposite direct, making suit opening and rebids relatively stronger by using something like Goldilocks 2-Bids (See ETM). But who plays them?

 

I have been working on developing my own homegrown system, and this information might prove to be very helpful. If I've ever had the privilege of playing against some of you when playing with one of my frequent BBO partners, then you might be familiar with what I've been working on---a system that is very natural and where minor suit openings are, like majors, often if not usually 5+ card in length (or else the hand has 4 spades or extra values. Is still a work in progress, but some more ideas are being considered. So, again, my sincerest appreciation for your response and information.

 

Don

[bearmum]

2♦ as ace asking  ;)

Still used nowadays in french standard !

 

2♦ = GF any hand

 

Responses are something like :

 

2♥ = 0-7H no ace

2♠= 1 major ace.

2NT = 8H+ or 2 kings no ace

3♣ =♣A

3♦ = ♦A

3♥= suit by KQ at least fifth no ace

3♠ = Same in spade

3NT = 2 Aces

 

 

Alain

WOW - nice structure :D and really useful as long as 2♦ is an ABSOLUTE game force -- even if P is bust

 

The thing with Schenken 2♦ bid was is WASN'T an absolute game force bid -- could be used for really freak hands where one needed to find out about WHICH specific aces ( and then possibly specific Kings and Queens) your partner had :rolleyes:

ANd SOMEWHERE I think I still have her original book too ;)