shevek Posted October 25, 2017 Report Share Posted October 25, 2017 West opens 1♥ when South is dealer, not condoned.South meanly opens 1♣ and West bids 1♥.Does this have "the same or similar meaning"? Given an agreed normal range of a 1♥ overcall of 9-16, is that similar enough?(Of course, West would be fine to overcall 2♥ if South opens 1♠) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordontd Posted October 25, 2017 Report Share Posted October 25, 2017 West opens 1♥ when South is dealer, not condoned.South meanly opens 1♣ and West bids 1♥.Does this have "the same or similar meaning"? Given an agreed normal range of a 1♥ overcall of 9-16, is that similar enough?(Of course, West would be fine to overcall 2♥ if South opens 1♠)My opinion, which I have expressed here before, is that for most players a one-level overcall is not comparable to an opening bid but a two-level non-jump overcall is. I think it's worth finding out the partnership style for overcalls - 9-16 strikes me as narrower than most I encounter. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve2005 Posted October 25, 2017 Report Share Posted October 25, 2017 In my opinion there is never a comparable call unless it goes all pass to the person bidding out of turn.(IMO) In the laws they should just give some penalty to the side bidding out of turn and either void the board or let the person bid whatever they want but have his partner restricted to not taking advantage of the UI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted October 25, 2017 Report Share Posted October 25, 2017 In my opinion there is never a comparable call unless it goes all pass to the person bidding out of turn.(IMO) In the laws they should just give some penalty to the side bidding out of turn and either void the board or let the person bid whatever they want but have his partner restricted to not taking advantage of the UI.That's obviously not how the Laws on calls out of turn are intended to be applied. It sounds more like your opinion of what the Laws should say, not what they actually say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BudH Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 West opens 1♥ when South is dealer, not condoned.South meanly opens 1♣ and West bids 1♥.Does this have "the same or similar meaning"? Given an agreed normal range of a 1♥ overcall of 9-16, is that similar enough?(Of course, West would be fine to overcall 2♥ if South opens 1♠) Until we obtain some approved examples and interpretations, whether a difference in minimum (or maximum) strength difference of a(n) (1) queen, or(2) king, or(3) ace, or(4) something slightly more than an ace will be considered close enough to meet the "similar meaning" criteria in Law 23A1, we will be debating this topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flem72 Posted October 28, 2017 Report Share Posted October 28, 2017 (edited) Until we obtain some approved examples and interpretations, whether a difference in minimum (or maximum) strength difference of a(n) (1) queen, or(2) king, or(3) ace, or(4) something slightly more than an ace will be considered close enough to meet the "similar meaning" criteria in Law 23A1, we will be debating this topic. Two things: I was told by an ACBL guy yesterday that there will be Webinars on CCs/UI, but I'm betting they are only for tournament directors.We discussed this example in, and rules guy agrees that there is some slop on values kinds of CCs. Then we talked about this iteration: East calls 1♥ OOT, not accepted. Dealer, S, calls 1m, W calls 1♠, N passes: Now this rules guy told me that he would only allow 2♥ if the pair plays new suits forcing after partner's overcall, not if they play constructive, NF. Hmmmm. Edited October 28, 2017 by barmar fix obvious typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted October 29, 2017 Report Share Posted October 29, 2017 A little birdy whispered in my ear and told me it's comparable and he would allow it. Who should I believe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted October 29, 2017 Report Share Posted October 29, 2017 We have agreements that we treat our overcalls as opening bids as regards responding to them and keep them well up to strength (unlike our opening bids) so for us, yes it's comparable, but for some who'll overcall on AQxxx and out, it clearly isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMB1 Posted October 29, 2017 Report Share Posted October 29, 2017 We have agreements that we treat our overcalls as opening bids as regards responding to them and keep them well up to strength (unlike our opening bids) so for us, yes it's comparable, but for some who'll overcall on AQxxx and out, it clearly isn't. If you are prone to making insufficient bids or BOOTs then you should write 'sound overcalls' on your card. When I suggested this at a local 'new laws' seminar, many did not know what a 'sound' overcall was - as would be obvious if you played here :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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