Who should've done more?

[JanisW]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakt6432h642dkjc2&n=sq9hadaq973ckt853&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=1dp1sp2cp3sp4sppp]266|200[/hv]

[LBengtsson]

north + south. bad bidding

[Cyberyeti]

What did 3♠ show ?

 

I would have bid 4♥ over it with the N hand which actually can't be much better in context.

[Tramticket]

Both should have done more.

 

As Cyberyeti says, the North hand can't be much better given the bidding to date.

 

Is 3♠ forcing in your methods? The South hand is starting to look pretty big with no wasted values and a likely heart shortage opposite the three small hearts.

[JanisW]

 

 

Is 3♠ forcing in your methods?

 

It is something like: if you do not have any excuse, you will have to bid game.

[The_Badger]

Can't see anything wrong with using a jump shift of 2♠ with the South hand in response to 1♦ except 2♠ in modern bidding shows 6♠s and a 4-7 count.

 

Other than that using a temporising Fourth Suit Forcing (or should that be Fourth Suit False-ing?) bid of 2♥ instead of 3♠ with the South hand might have taken the bidding in a different direction.

 

As Cyberyeti says, an advanced cue bid of 4♥ by North is a better bid than a perfunctory 4♠. I think that South now has to credit North with extras and be willing to explore beyond 4♠, though I acknowledge there are plenty of hands where 5♠ won't make, let alone 6♠. Yes it's tough to bid slam with any accuracy on the hands.

[Cyberyeti]

After 4♥ the S hand is enormous, as little as Qx, x, AQxxx, Axxxx is plenty for a slam.

 

If you play 1m-2♠ as weak, surely you can bid 2♠ rather than 3 on this hand over 2♣ which gives more space for investigation, we don't, but still play 2♠ as almost forcing in the vein of the OP's 3♠, now over a 4♥ splinter it will be bid comfortably.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

Unless you play nonstandard agreements, like wjo, the 3S bid by South is NF,

i.e. North could pass this out

South should either go via 4th suit or bid 4S direct.

 

After a direct 4S, North will pass, i.e. if you want to have an auction to 6S,

you need South to go via 4th suit, ..., which may a bit of a stretch.

If South goes via 4th suit, he will put on the breaks.

 

All in all 6S is hard to bid, but try to avoid getting dropped in a partial, when

slam makes.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: If you play SJO, than the hand is ok, starting with a SJO may be the only realistic

approach without tomuch stretching.

[Cyberyeti]

Hi,

 

Unless you play nonstandard agreements, like wjo, the 3S bid by South is NF,

i.e. North could pass this out

South should either go via 4th suit or bid 4S direct.

 

After a direct 4S, North will pass, i.e. if you want to have an auction to 6S,

you need South to go via 4th suit, ..., which may a bit of a stretch.

If South goes via 4th suit, he will put on the breaks.

 

All in all 6S is hard to bid, but try to avoid getting dropped in a partial, when

slam makes.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: If you play SJO, than the hand is ok, starting with a SJO may be the only realistic

approach without tomuch stretching.

 

3♠ is slightly pessimistic but not silly, where do you want to be opposite x, Qx, Axxxx, KQJ10x

 

Providing partner only passes with an ill fitting minimum, that's fine

 

I think 1♦-1♠-2♣-3♠-4♥-4N-5♠-6♠ is entirely plausible

[rmnka447]

Over here, I believe most people would play 3 ♠ as non-forcing/invitational. So that's a serious underbid.

 

The good 7 card ♠ suit coupled with the gorgeous fitting honor doubleton in opener's first bid suit should prompt South to make a 2 ♥ FSF bid if that's available. The alternative would be an immediate 4 ♠ that would show the long ♠, but it could be made on the same size suit with a lot less values.

 

Opener would continue the hand's description with 3 ♣. Then the auction depends on bidding agreements. If fast arrival is in force, then 3 ♠ is the strongest bid. If not, then 4 ♠ would seem proper. In any case, I think North should cue ♥ over the stronger ♠ bid. At this level, the ♥ cue should agree ♠ and show at least mild slam interest.

 

I see the auction as something like

 

1 ♦ - 1 ♠

2 ♣ - 2 ♥ (FSF)

3 ♣ - 3 ♠

4 ♥ - 4 NT

5 ♠ - 6 ♠

[P_Marlowe]

3♠ is slightly pessimistic but not silly, where do you want to be opposite x, Qx, Axxxx, KQJ10x

 

Providing partner only passes with an ill fitting minimum, that's fine

 

I think 1♦-1♠-2♣-3♠-4♥-4N-5♠-6♠ is entirely plausible

I can agree, that you may downgrade the South hand, it is a judgement call, I am never arguing

with this, although I dont think, you will have lots of company, but I am often a lone ranger myself.

But why should North make slam move facing a limited hand? The only thing that comes from it, is telling

the opponents what to attack.

The North hand is not that much limited, it still could be in the range 12-17/18, and it did not even deny

3 card spade support, if North regular makes those moves, how is South supposed to know, when to stop in 4S,

instead of going down in 5S?

[P_Marlowe]

Over here, I believe most people would play 3 ♠ as non-forcing/invitational. So that's a serious underbid.

 

The good 7 card ♠ suit coupled with the gorgeous fitting honor doubleton in opener's first bid suit should prompt South to make a 2 ♥ FSF bid if that's available. The alternative would be an immediate 4 ♠ that would show the long ♠, but it could be made on the same size suit with a lot less values.

 

Opener would continue the hand's description with 3 ♣. Then the auction depends on bidding agreements. If fast arrival is in force, then 3 ♠ is the strongest bid. If not, then 4 ♠ would seem proper. In any case, I think North should cue ♥ over the stronger ♠ bid. At this level, the ♥ cue should agree ♠ and show at least mild slam interest.

 

I see the auction as something like

 

1 ♦ - 1 ♠

2 ♣ - 2 ♥ (FSF)

3 ♣ - 3 ♠

4 ♥ - 4 NT

5 ♠ - 6 ♠

The question to answer: What is the difference in strength between a 3S / 4S bid in the given auction.

It may well be, that you should never bid 4S, given the wide range opener still can hold.

If you forbid 4S, than 3S is a request to make cue bids, that will only work, if you have the ability

to make a serious and a non serious cue bid.

[Cyberyeti]

I can agree, that you may downgrade the South hand, it is a judgement call, I am never arguing

with this, although I dont think, you will have lots of company, but I am often a lone ranger myself.

But why should North make slam move facing a limited hand? The only thing that comes from it, is telling

the opponents what to attack.

The North hand is not that much limited, it still could be in the range 12-17/18, and it did not even deny

3 card spade support, if North regular makes those moves, how is South supposed to know, when to stop in 4S,

instead of going down in 5S?

 

I don't think 5♠ is in doubt often if 3♠ is what the OP says it is, and the hands where it is will decline the slam try.

 

TBH AK 7th and a card that partner won't devalue with the heart splinter, slam will not be much worse than the diamond finesse.

[nekthen]

It is important to know what jump shifts you are playing and the affect it has on the rest of your bidding.

I play an immediate 2♠ as weak 6 cards and 3♠ as weak 7 cards, which would be my bid without K♦

Therefore responder's rebid of 3♠ is accurate for me and I would rebid 2♠ with the same hand with only 6♠. With more hcp i will bid 2♥. With less spades and 11 count I have to bid 2[d] and trust p to keep the bidding alive if possible.

 

I think it is clear for north to bid 4♥ Qx ♠ (opposite a known 7 carder), no ♥ losers. P can still sign off in 4♠ if he is unsuitable.

[msjennifer]

6S is difficult to bid.If the club King is replaced by the Ace then a 4 Heart bid is acceptable.As it is the hand will not be easy to manage on a heart lead and spade Jack not falling.

[Cyberyeti]

6S is difficult to bid.If the club King is replaced by the Ace then a 4 Heart bid is acceptable.As it is the hand will not be easy to manage on a heart lead and spade Jack not falling.

 

The contract is still with the odds, it makes if:

 

Diamonds are 3-3

Diamonds are 4-2/5-1 with the 10 in the short hand

 

I make it 55% ish

 

OK, it's less than that due to trumps 4-0 offside, but on a heart lead you can still survive that a fair bit of the time

[PhilG007]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakt6432h642dkjc2&n=sq9hadaq973ckt853&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=1dp1sp2cp3sp4sppp]266|200[/hv]

I would respond 2♠ on the South hand. North is then left in no doubt of what the

trump suit should be. This is forcing to at least game.If North bids 3♣ South simply converts to 4♠

and game,at least has been reached. Holding the North cards,I would then realise the Q♠ has become a enormous card

and I would start slam investigations eventually reaching 6♠ which is laydown

Correct bidding should be

1♦ 2♠

3♣ 4♠

4NoTrumps 5♥ (2 no Q♠)

6♠ Pass

[GrahamJson]

If a 2S response is weak, as in 2/1, then the 3S bid should be forcing, in which case north has a clear 4H cue bid.

 

If a 2S response is GF, as in Acol, then south should go through the fourth suit, which is usually played as game forcing these days. In this case the bidding might go;

1D-1S-2C-2H-3C-3S-4H... which should give you a chance of reaching 6S.

 

Personally I wouldn’t lose too much sleep over missing the slam. Note that if souths red suits are reversed six is a very poor contract. Only south knows of his diamond fit, so it is he that needs to go past four, probably with a 5D cue bid. A 4NT bid by north, unless S has shown the fit, is a shot in the dark.

[miamijd]

If a 2S response is weak, as in 2/1, then the 3S bid should be forcing, in which case north has a clear 4H cue bid.

 

If a 2S response is GF, as in Acol, then south should go through the fourth suit, which is usually played as game forcing these days. In this case the bidding might go;

1D-1S-2C-2H-3C-3S-4H... which should give you a chance of reaching 6S.

 

Personally I wouldn’t lose too much sleep over missing the slam. Note that if souths red suits are reversed six is a very poor contract. Only south knows of his diamond fit, so it is he that needs to go past four, probably with a 5D cue bid. A 4NT bid by north, unless S has shown the fit, is a shot in the dark.

 

From a systemic standpoint, it's awkward to have both 3S and fourth suit be game forces. One of them should be GF; the other one should be able to serve as an invite (if you play 4SF as only a one-round force, it can be invite or better). Otherwise, you have no good way to show an invite with a good six-bagger.

 

Some older 2/1 systems like Eastern Scientific played responder's second round jump in the major he bid on the first round as GF, with 4SF as a one-round force. So to invite, you would bid 4th suit and then the major on the cheapest (usually 3) level.

 

That treatment is considered passe today, because for a variety of reasons, it's generally best for 2/1 to set a game force, so that the partnership can explore for slam. The immediate jump wastes some bidding room, so it's better to use it as an invite.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[JanisW]

Thank you all for your insights.

I conclude that S should've bid 2H 4SF, though some expressed the thought that 3S is not a serious underbid, as it is gameforcing opposite almost any ordinary opener.

Is the S-Hand really a 4SF followed by the stronger ♠-bid (which would be 3♠) after all it's a 6 Looser Hand with a horrible ♥-holding?

 

With S failing to make a gf-bid, N has more difficulty to bid the 4♥-cue. But I guess he cannot be much better in context and should at least give S the good news, that he has serious extras for the bidding so far.

 

I would've expected N to do more.

 

Thanks

JW

[ahydra]

Needs a lot of system discussion to agree how to show long spade hands with various ranges. There are three main approaches:

 

a) 1x-2S is played as WJS ~4-8, 1x-1S; 2y-2S is ~9-11 and 3S is GF SI

b) 1x-2S is played as a very weak WJS, 1x-1S; 2y-2S is still ~6-9, and then 3S is needed as INV

c) 1x-2S is played as strong, then 1x-1S; 2y-3S is INV ("Standard Acol")

 

Also you need to agree how you play 1x-4S and 1x-1S; 2y-4S. For me the second shows something like this South hand - a hand based on values and long spades rather than weak with shape and long spades. As such 1x-1S; 2y-4SF; 3z-3S is normally considered to have SI (fairly serious, not just mild SI), since with a simple GF strength hand responder just rebids 4S. [Hmm, what about ...4SF; 3z-4S?]

 

So it's a question of whether you think the South hand is good enough to show slam interest. I think it needs a bit more (add the HK, say), but after 1D-1S; 2C-4S, North should still consider moving with the wonderful spade support and red aces. He might worry that South holds e.g. 7411, but life's too short. Perhaps his best option is to offer 5C, trying to elicit 5D from South to fill in the diamonds. After he does hear 5D he can sign off in 6S because if South held SAK, DK and CA he would have gone via 4SF.

 

ahydra

[miamijd]

Thank you all for your insights.

I conclude that S should've bid 2H 4SF, though some expressed the thought that 3S is not a serious underbid, as it is gameforcing opposite almost any ordinary opener.

Is the S-Hand really a 4SF followed by the stronger ♠-bid (which would be 3♠) after all it's a 6 Looser Hand with a horrible ♥-holding?

 

With S failing to make a gf-bid, N has more difficulty to bid the 4♥-cue. But I guess he cannot be much better in context and should at least give S the good news, that he has serious extras for the bidding so far.

 

I would've expected N to do more.

 

Thanks

JW

 

In bridge, ya gotta bid your games. The South hand has to force to game opposite an opening bid -- period. If partner has a spade void and a bunch of minor junk, so be it. But treating this hand as invitational is, in the long run, losing bridge. To ask North to do anything other than bid 4S over an invite is silly, because South shouldn't have this hand and invite. If South has what I think is a good invite given the auction:

 

AKJxxx

xxx

Jx

Qx

 

you'll be in trouble, as 5S may well fail.

 

South should make a GF bid (seems like that's 4SF then spades in your system, as it is in most 2/1 systems) and not bid 4S over 2C. 4S over 2C should deny a side A or K and just show really good spades (better than South actually has).

 

Cheers,

mike

[Cyberyeti]

In bridge, ya gotta bid your games. The South hand has to force to game opposite an opening bid -- period. If partner has a spade void and a bunch of minor junk, so be it. But treating this hand as invitational is, in the long run, losing bridge. To ask North to do anything other than bid 4S over an invite is silly, because South shouldn't have this hand and invite. If South has what I think is a good invite given the auction:

 

AKJxxx

xxx

Jx

Qx

 

you'll be in trouble, as 5S may well fail.

 

South should make a GF bid (seems like that's 4SF then spades in your system, as it is in most 2/1 systems) and not bid 4S over 2C. 4S over 2C should deny a side A or K and just show really good spades (better than South actually has).

 

Cheers,

mike

 

I wouldn't bid 3♠ with this suit, 3♠ should be a suit partner is confident raising to 4 with a small singleton and where you are confident spades is a better fit than either minor which you can't be here. Add the 10♠ and it's closer. You still need quite a lot to go wrong for 5♠ to fail.

[S V Bhide]

I wonder why some players objected to 3 Sp. What is wrong with first jump= slasm possibility and 2nd round game force.With this unerstanding since N is slightly better than for game should have bid 4 H as cue. S V Bhide

[S V Bhide]

I wonder why some players objected to 3 Sp. What is wrong with first jump= slasm possibility and 2nd round game force.With this unerstanding since N is slightly better than for game should have bid 4 H as cue. S V Bhide