The Fallacy of Racial Bias

[yunling]

Then why are you questioning me? ;)

 

I‘ll be appreciated if you give a little more respect to their own culture.

I can say that canis lupus arctos are all equal to me, but it does not matter at all.

Canis lupus arctos with darker hair are discriminated among themselves. If I'm commenting on canis lupus arctos I'll try to state the fact instead of introducing my own cultural bias.

 

e.g.People are not concerned with the racial segregation in Malaysia not because there is no/little dicrimination but because Islamic culture is more acceptable to them.

[Winstonm]

I‘ll be appreciated if you give a little more respect to their own culture.

I can say that canis lupus arctos are all equal to me, but it does not matter at all.

Canis lupus arctos with darker hair are discriminated among themselves. If I'm commenting on canis lupus arctos I'll try to state the fact instead of introducing my own cultural bias.

 

e.g.People are not concerned with the racial segregation in Malaysia not because there is no/little dicrimination but because Islamic culture is more acceptable to them.

 

My point exactly. Cultures vary; humans are the same, regardless of skin color.

[johnu]

Butterflies are not social animals so don't see how it's relevant.

 

Hmmm, someone should tell that to the monarch butterflies who have a mass migration to Mexico.

[cloa513]

 

These are all butterflies. Natural variations within the species accounts for their different appearances. No single variation is superior to the others. They are equally butterflies.

 

Perhaps our mirrors should be designed to reflect not ourselves but the diversity of our own species?

What careful measurements do you do to see that there really isn't any difference between them. I suspect none.

[Zelandakh]

What careful measurements do you do to see that there really isn't any difference between them. I suspect none.

In the case of Araschnia levana, the difference is purely down to the time of year when it was born. The upper form comes from the Spring brood and the lower (prorsa) form is the Summer brood. You can see something similar in animals that change their appearance during the year on a seasonal basis such as with black-headed gulls and arctic hares.

 

There is on the other hand also some basis for thinking that animals themselves select based purely on appearance. An example of this comes from the crow family. For many years hooded crows and carrion crows were considered the same species but have now been split due to detailed observations showing that their hybridisation is low. It does mean that the crows appear to be choosing sexual partners purely on the basis of appearance though, known as assortative mating. And the same process applies also to humans of course. So you do need to be careful when invoking the natural world to support a case. Nature has many contradictory examples and what happens there is often not what we would regard as positive and healthy for human society.

[Al_U_Card]

What careful measurements do you do to see that there really isn't any difference between them. I suspect none.

Is there inter-species breeding? Seems to me that most animals and insects stay within strict "group recognition" guidelines. Selfish genes perhaps? I suppose that mules coming from horses and donkeys is an issue but only because it has to do with man-made obligations.

 

At present, the typical human face would tend to be oriental, based on numbers. Pure-bred animals are subject to lots of congenital diseases (plants as well, I gather) so hybridization and genetic diversity is a good thing. I know that it has made my grand-kids very cute indeed. :)

[Zelandakh]

If we were ever to reach a society where skin colour is completely ignored, I suppose this would be the logical next step. To think that such "-isms" are ever going to go away completely rather flies in the face of all evidence over the entire history of mankind.

[Winstonm]

In the case of Araschnia levana, the difference is purely down to the time of year when it was born. The upper form comes from the Spring brood and the lower (prorsa) form is the Summer brood. You can see something similar in animals that change their appearance during the year on a seasonal basis such as with black-headed gulls and arctic hares.

 

There is on the other hand also some basis for thinking that animals themselves select based purely on appearance. An example of this comes from the crow family. For many years hooded crows and carrion crows were considered the same species but have now been split due to detailed observations showing that their hybridisation is low. It does mean that the crows appear to be choosing sexual partners purely on the basis of appearance though, known as assortative mating. And the same process applies also to humans of course. So you do need to be careful when invoking the natural world to support a case. Nature has many contradictory examples and what happens there is often not what we would regard as positive and healthy for human society.

 

The perfect analogy is as hard to find as an arctic hare wearing an Elvis wig in a flock of black-headed seagulls. :blink:

 

I wouldn't get caught up in minutiae - it is enough to consider the differences between immediately thinking "black man" compared to "man, who has dark skin" and how to get to the latter.

[Winstonm]

If we were ever to reach a society where skin colour is completely ignored, I suppose this would be the logical next step. To think that such "-isms" are ever going to go away completely rather flies in the face of all evidence over the entire history of mankind.

 

This would probably lead to your 19th nervous breakdown. :P

[barmar]

Is there inter-species breeding? Seems to me that most animals and insects stay within strict "group recognition" guidelines.

The usual definition of a species is a population of organisms that can and do breed with each other and produce fertile offspring. So if you get inter-species breeding, they weren't actually different species to begin with.

 

Note the importance of "can and do". Sometimes there will be groups that are genetically compatible, but for various reasons refuse avoid breeding with each other. This can happen if environmental factors separate the populations long enough for them to evolve enough superficial differences that they no longer recognize each other as being the same or desirable.

 

But it's not a perfect definition. Homo sapiens is considered a separate species from Homo neanderthalis, but we've found some Neanderthal genes in our species so we know there was a small amount of interbreeding. But it's a small enough trace that we don't think it was common enough to consider them the same species.

 

Kind of like races, except that even though race mixing has often been considered taboo, it has also been common enough that we haven't split into separate species.

[Cyberyeti]

The usual definition of a species is a population of organisms that can and do breed with each other and produce fertile offspring. So if you get inter-species breeding, they weren't actually different species to begin with.

 

Note the importance of "can and do". Sometimes there will be groups that are genetically compatible, but for various reasons refuse avoid breeding with each other. This can happen if environmental factors separate the populations long enough for them to evolve enough superficial differences that they no longer recognize each other as being the same or desirable.

 

But it's not a perfect definition. Homo sapiens is considered a separate species from Homo neanderthalis, but we've found some Neanderthal genes in our species so we know there was a small amount of interbreeding. But it's a small enough trace that we don't think it was common enough to consider them the same species.

 

Kind of like races, except that even though race mixing has often been considered taboo, it has also been common enough that we haven't split into separate species.

 

Among snakes production of fertile offspring from clearly different species (indeed different families) can happen, pantherophis ratsnakes to lampropeltis kingsnakes for example with offspring fertile to either parent species or each other.

[Zelandakh]

Among snakes production of fertile offspring from clearly different species (indeed different families) can happen, pantherophis ratsnakes to lampropeltis kingsnakes for example with offspring fertile to either parent species or each other.

It can and does happen in the crows I mentioned too. Barry even wrote about this in his post referring to Neanderthal - the frequency of inter-breeding is relevant here when it comes to defining them as different species or not. The ability to have fertile offspring alone is not enough to consider 2 animals to be the same species.

[kenberg]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2017/09/19/mutant-butterflies-reveal-the-genetic-roots-of-colorful-wings/?utm_term=.d8c50993f7ae

 

 

The above article might or might not be relevant, I can't really say since the whole linkage of butterflies to racism escapes me. But I like butterflies.

[Cyberyeti]

It can and does happen in the crows I mentioned too. Barry even wrote about this in his post referring to Neanderthal - the frequency of inter-breeding is relevant here when it comes to defining them as different species or not. The ability to have fertile offspring alone is not enough to consider 2 animals to be the same species.

 

There are areas of Spain where vipera aspis and vipera latastei regularly mate and the offspring are fertile.

[USViking]

This made me think of the myth of American Exceptionalism which is largely based on the achievements of immigrants like Steve Jobs but embraced by Nascar enthusiasts etc. to justify a status that most of the rest of us just ain't buying.

Although immigrants have certainly contributed much to the US Steve Jobs was not one; it was his father who was an immigrant, from Syria.

[USViking]

You don't have to be a social animal to realize there is no difference other than appearance among the butterflies.

There is a pretty big difference difference between them if they cannot mate and produce fertile offspring.

 

You would have done better to have posted pictures of six different breeds of dog.

[barmar]

Although immigrants have certainly contributed much to the US Steve Jobs was not one; it was his father who was an immigrant, from Syria.

Children of immigrants wouldn't be here if we didn't have a liberal immigration policy. And his biological father was a political refugee, a class of immigration that's in extreme danger from GOP policies.

[cherdano]

Clear solution: only allow in children of immigrants not immigrants themselves!

[Winstonm]

There is a pretty big difference difference between them if they cannot mate and produce fertile offspring.

 

You would have done better to have posted pictures of six different breeds of dog.

 

Arf.

[Vampyr]

Butterflies are not social animals so don't see how it's relevant.

 

But monkeys are. The largest primate rescue centre in the world is Monkey World in Dorset. A few years ago they rescued 82 capuchin monkeys who were being "retired" from a laboratory in Chile. The monkeys had spent their lives in little individual cages, so had no opportunities for social behaviours.

 

Anyway when the monkeys arrived at their new home, they quickly segregated themselves into two groups according to the colour of their fur. The groups vehemently rejected a monkey of the other skin colour if it tried to join their group.