North Korea: What Next?

[The_Badger]

What's going on here? These channels are nothing like the brutal ones for ISIS propaganda and provide valuable intelligence to the International Community as per the comments in the article.

 

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/youtube-shuts-down-north-korean-propaganda-channels/ar-AArwIHt?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartandhp

 

Today, is North Korean Independence Day - 9th September. South Korea believes that another show of military force by the North will happen today.

 

I'm not a conspiracy theorist but the timing is so coincidental.

[Bermy]

If you couldn't containium the Uranium from the Iranian

You said You must herd the mustard from the custard

You didn’t stop the career of the carrier to Korea

If you fail again armegeddon out of here

[The_Badger]

Just led the latest: Second missile fired over Japan island of Hokkaido. What now? I read what Noam Chomsky says about North Korea. I read what he says about the USA. I try to look at what is happening in North Korea from a different perspective. But facts are facts, and talking is talking: firing not just one missile but two is aggravated provocation. At what missile number do we actually say 'enough is enough'?

[Winstonm]

Just led the latest: Second missile fired over Japan island of Hokkaido. What now? I read what Noam Chomsky says about North Korea. I read what he says about the USA. I try to look at what is happening in North Korea from a different perspective. But facts are facts, and talking is talking: firing not just one missile but two is aggravated provocation. At what missile number do we actually say 'enough is enough'?

 

And do what?

 

At this point a functioning and fully-staffed State Department would be nice.

[The_Badger]

And do what?

 

At this point a functioning and fully-staffed State Department would be nice.

 

Let's put this another way. Today, in London, a terrorist bomb failed to detonate - thankfully - but caused people to be injured. We know (to a certain extent) who the enemy is, and they have done this before, so both Europe and the USA have procedures in place to try to prevent it happening.

 

North Korea flies potential bombs over Japan. They don't cause injury, but if they had a warhead, and had landed and detonated in a town or city there would be casualties. We know who the perpetrator is, he has done this before, so both Europe and the USA should have procedures in place to try to prevent it happening.

 

Europe and America try to capture or terminate ISIS members. With North Korea we sit on the fence and allow Kim Jong-in to continue to laugh in our face. Why?

[hrothgar]

 

Europe and America try to capture or terminate ISIS members. With North Korea we sit on the fence and allow Kim Jong-in to continue to laugh in our face. Why?

 

Because no one is so callous as to condemn a million South Koreans to death because they don't like being laughed at.

 

There's roughly 25 million people living in Seoul and the North Korean have approximately a 1,000 heavy artillery and multiple launch rocket systems in range of the city.

 

Its really easy to play tough guy when you aren't the one paying the bill...

[Winstonm]

Let's put this another way. Today, in London, a terrorist bomb failed to detonate - thankfully - but caused people to be injured. We know (to a certain extent) who the enemy is, and they have done this before, so both Europe and the USA have procedures in place to try to prevent it happening.

 

North Korea flies potential bombs over Japan. They don't cause injury, but if they had a warhead, and had landed and detonated in a town or city there would be casualties. We know who the perpetrator is, he has done this before, so both Europe and the USA should have procedures in place to try to prevent it happening.

 

Europe and America try to capture or terminate ISIS members. With North Korea we sit on the fence and allow Kim Jong-in to continue to laugh in our face. Why?

 

Again the question can be asked: what do you think can and should be done? Trump and Tillerson have effectively nullified our best options, the State Department and our allies working in concert to bring world pressure to bear on North Korea, Russia, and China. China and Russia do not want anti-missile defense systems around their borders, so our willingness to aid South Korea and Japan with such systems would pressure Russia and China to intervene more strongly with North Korea.

 

Of course, that's not as much fun as blowing everything up, but at least the world survives this way.

[The_Badger]

Because no one is so callous as to condemn a million South Koreans to death because they don't like being laughed at.

 

There's roughly 25 million people living in Seoul and the North Korean have approximately a 1,000 heavy artillery and multiple launch rocket systems in range of the city.

 

Its really easy to play tough guy when you aren't the one paying the bill...

 

I agree. But it's only one guy calling the shots here. And it's really easy for Kim Jong-in to play the tough guy as well as he isn't paying the bill either. And he's now got a nuclear arsenal that he's prepared to use. If he really cared about his countrymen, Koreans in both the North and the South, he wouldn't be goading the US and their allies to attack. He'd be sitting down at the negotiating table and finding a diplomatic solution. And we all know that's not going to ever happen.

[hrothgar]

I agree. But it's only one guy calling the shots here. And it's really easy for Kim Jong-in to play the tough guy as well as he isn't paying the bill either. And he's now got a nuclear arsenal that he's prepared to use. If he really cared about his countrymen, Koreans in both the North and the South, he wouldn't be goading the US and their allies to attack. He'd be sitting down at the negotiating table and finding a diplomatic solution. And we all know that's not going to ever happen.

 

The South Koreans who would die are decided NOT his countrymen

[Cyberyeti]

The South Koreans who would die are decided NOT his countrymen

 

But you don't think if that happened, the North would be a radioactive desert ?

[hrothgar]

But you don't think if that happened, the North would be a radioactive desert ?

 

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I don't think that the North Korean regime will intentionally launch a unilateral attack on South Korea, Japan, or the US.

 

I am very much worried about a scenario like the following

 

1. NK launches a ballistic missile towards Guam

2. Something goes wrong. A missile that was meant to land 25 miles away from the island actually hits the island

3. The US over reacts

4. Bye bye Seoul

 

Or, alternatively

 

1. Mueller provides information documenting a combination of sustained money laundering on the part of Trump providing information to the Russians for ad buys

2. Trump decides that he needs to do something presidential and decides on a decapitation strike

3. Bye bye Seoul

[The_Badger]

I truly despair. God help America! Your president, Donald Trump, doesn't seem to have an iota of intelligence when it comes to international diplomacy.

 

The latest: Trump tweets that Kim Jong-un is the "Rocket Man". Name-calling at this highest level of politics, with so much going on, borders on total stupidity, in my opinion.

 

Just ignore the vile outbursts of Kim Jong-un, Donald Trump. Getting involved in a Twitter spat just isn't helping here.

 

Donald Trump still thinks he is on TV talking to an apprentice. For goodness sake grow up and realise that the whole world is looking towards you for strong and imaginative leadership: this isn't a school playground scenario.

[Winstonm]

I truly despair. God help America! Your president, Donald Trump, doesn't seem to have an iota of intelligence when it comes to international diplomacy.

 

The latest: Trump tweets that Kim Jong-un is the "Rocket Man". Name-calling at this highest level of politics, with so much going on, borders on total stupidity, in my opinion.

 

Just ignore the vile outbursts of Kim Jong-un, Donald Trump. Getting involved in a Twitter spat just isn't helping here.

 

Donald Trump still thinks he is on TV talking to an apprentice. For goodness sake grow up and realise that the whole world is looking towards you for strong and imaginative leadership: this isn't a school playground scenario.

 

The truly frightening thing is that 62 million people cast a vote for the moron.

[Al_U_Card]

The truly frightening thing is that 62 million people cast a vote for the moron.

Count the votes cast for criminals, knuckle-heads, predators and OMG golfers and you get a pretty good picture of the kind of democracy that is still better than every other system of government.

[Zelandakh]

Count the votes cast for criminals, knuckle-heads, predators and OMG golfers and you get a pretty good picture of the kind of democracy that is still better than every other system of government.

I would argue that the system of government that America helped to create for Germany after WWII is orders of magnitude better than the original from the Founding Fathers, though I can understand misplaced patriotism being unable to find fault with their work.

[Al_U_Card]

I would argue that the system of government that America helped to create for Germany after WWII is orders of magnitude better than the original from the Founding Fathers, though I can understand misplaced patriotism being unable to find fault with their work.

I suppose that Churchill (as badly as the quote was presented) liked the US or democracy but his patriotism (as mine) is not American nor is it misplaced. Ad homs are just part of the preaching?

[Zelandakh]

I suppose that Churchill (as badly as the quote was presented) liked the US or democracy but his patriotism (as mine) is not American nor is it misplaced. Ad homs are just part of the preaching?

Not sure to which ad hom you are referring. I am also not sure which Churchill quote you mean - his best known is:

 

Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time

...but what bearing that has on the relative merits of the two system of government under discussion I am not sure.

[jjbrr]

In case you want a reminder of what presidents sound like when they aren't threatening nuclear war:

 

"I come before you humbled by the responsibility that the American people have placed upon me, mindful of the enormous challenges of our moment in history, and determined to act boldly and collectively on behalf of justice and prosperity at home and abroad.

 

I have been in office for just nine months -- though some days it seems a lot longer. I am well aware of the expectations that accompany my presidency around the world. These expectations are not about me. Rather, they are rooted, I believe, in a discontent with a status quo that has allowed us to be increasingly defined by our differences, and outpaced by our problems. But they are also rooted in hope -- the hope that real change is possible, and the hope that America will be a leader in bringing about such change.

 

I took office at a time when many around the world had come to view America with skepticism and distrust. Part of this was due to misperceptions and misinformation about my country. Part of this was due to opposition to specific policies, and a belief that on certain critical issues, America has acted unilaterally, without regard for the interests of others. And this has fed an almost reflexive anti-Americanism, which too often has served as an excuse for collective inaction.

 

Now, like all of you, my responsibility is to act in the interest of my nation and my people, and I will never apologize for defending those interests. But it is my deeply held belief that in the year 2009 -- more than at any point in human history -- the interests of nations and peoples are shared."

[nige1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFedyqandWU

[RedSpawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFedyqandWU

This is what ticks me off. I wish our federal government would take a more proactive stance on explaining the context of our foreign policy toward Iraq, Iran, and North Korea. I almost get the feeling that our foreign policy gets lost in the news shuffle by more salacious news topics like a teenager found dead in a freezer.

 

Bush labeled Iraq an axis of evil and decimated Iraq for not surrendering weapons of mass destruction it no longer had. That was our pretext. We also eliminated Saddam Hussein under this threat and the world watched one of our biggest and costliest military intelligence failures.

 

Now we have another member of the axis of evil going rogue. After watching what happened to Iraq, we are asking North Korea to stop their nuclear program and be a good neighbor and feel safe while being labeled an axis of evil by the world's largest military?

 

Is that realistic?

 

Russia has basically said, "We condemn North Korea's provocative actions but given the United States' aggressive cowboy diplomacy in the Middle East, we UNDERSTAND why they won't give up their nuclear program".

 

Our cowboy diplomacy doesn't come for free. We have a federal government that spends trillions of dollars annually but refuses to put its foreign policy in a nice concise, transparent, historical context for public consumption. Where are the government officials "breaking down" our position and involvement on this matter to the masses?

 

You won't find them as they believe our foreign policy is too "complicated" for the average American to digest so we don't receive a full and fair "Reader's Digest" version of our approach. Instead, we hear a cacophony of war drums.

[y66]

Why one of the smartest North Korea experts we know just got a lot more worried about war by Max Fisher and Amanda Taub.

[The_Badger]

Why one of the smartest North Korea experts we know just got a lot more worried about war by Max Fisher and Amanda Taub.

 

This is an interesting theory, but Trump and his advisers perhaps feel they are in a no-win scenario. Either they "mow the lawn" now - a Noam Chomsky idiom - or let the grass grow higher and higher until it becomes impossible to deal with.

 

Even though I do not have much time for Trump, and his UN speech was unbelievable, shooting from the hip with all guns blazing, I sometimes wonder what I would do in his shoes? There's no easy solution, I feel, except if Kim Jong-in abandons his rhetoric and nuclear aims and comes to the negotiating table, something that is very unlikely to occur.

 

Just what happens next is anyone's guess, but I do agree with the article that war is now a distinct possibility - sadly.

[barmar]

I agree, this is a very difficult situation for anyone. The problem is that Trump is not "anyone", so that makes it more worrying.

 

I wonder if Kim has chosen to escalate his activity since Trump took office preceisely because he knows that we have one of the least prepared Presidents in charge.

[Winstonm]

This is an interesting theory, but Trump and his advisers perhaps feel they are in a no-win scenario. Either they "mow the lawn" now - a Noam Chomsky idiom - or let the grass grow higher and higher until it becomes impossible to deal with.

 

Even though I do not have much time for Trump, and his UN speech was unbelievable, shooting from the hip with all guns blazing, I sometimes wonder what I would do in his shoes? There's no easy solution, I feel, except if Kim Jong-in abandons his rhetoric and nuclear aims and comes to the negotiating table, something that is very unlikely to occur.

 

Just what happens next is anyone's guess, but I do agree with the article that war is now a distinct possibility - sadly.

 

Trump and Tillerson have gutted the State Department - how can anyone expect any reasonable outcome when you eliminate all the grown-ups in the room and put the first graders in charge of the world?

[barmar]

Trump and Tillerson have gutted the State Department - how can anyone expect any reasonable outcome when you eliminate all the grown-ups in the room and put the first graders in charge of the world?

And his Secretary of Defense even said that this is a dangerous move -- he doesn't want military action, and needs better diplomacy to prevent it.