2/1 system with no ACOL bid

[Kapi Blas]

Hey guys!

 

2/1 systems are probably most common ones right know. All of them are using 2♣ ACOL bid or 2♦ACOL bid. Because this Game Forcing hands comes very rarely, there must be another way to use this bids for something more common. Some 5-5 hands or something like that. Obviously there must be some opening, which would contain these GF hands. I was thinking that it might be 1♣ maybe? This is the system i'm currently playing:

 

1♣ 2+ clubs 12-21 HCP

1♦ 4+ diamonds 12-21 HCP

1♥ 5+ hearths 12-21 HCP

1♠ 5+ spades 12-21 HCP

1 NT 15-17 HCP or 10-13 HCP balanced while not vulnerable against vulnerable

2♣ 18-19 HCP balanced

2♦ ACOL

2♥ 5+ hearths and 4+ minor 2-9HCP not vulnerable or 6+ hearths 6-10 HCP vulnerable

2♠ 5+ spades and 4+ minor 2-9HCP not vulnerable or 6+ spades 6-10 HCP vulnerable

2 NT 20-22 HCP balanced

3♣/♦/♥/♠ 7+ vulnerable or 6+ not vulnerable, not constructive

 

As you can see the system is very destructive while not vulnerable but it could be even better i guess when 2♦ would be showing 4+-4+ majors 2-9 HCP for example. What are your thoughts about removing ACOL opening from 2/1 systems?

[TylerE]

2♣ as some sort of "almost GF" strong hand is one of the worst conventions ever devised.

[Vampyr]

Use your 2♣ bid as in Acol, then play 2♦ Multi, so you can accommodate your balanced 18-19 and your single-suited weak twos. If this is not to your taste, well there must be a reason that some people play a Mexican 2♦ but no one plays a Mexican 2♣.

 

In any case, investigate Polish Club.

 

Also EHAA, which has no strong openings.

[nullve]

there must be a reason that some people play a Mexican 2♦ but no one plays a Mexican 2♣.

Mexican 2♣ is part of Big Bang and its precursor, the Bocchi-Duboin system.

[Vampyr]

Mexican 2♣ is part of Big Bang and its precursor, the Bocchi-Duboin system.

 

Right, I didn't know that. With a strong 1♣?

[helene_t]

I am not sure what 2♦=Acol means. 2♦ is any GF hand? In that case, swap 2♣ and 2♦. Anyway, 2♣ as a generic GF (including 23-24 balanced if those hands can't be put into 2♦) is a better use than 2♣=18-19. With 18-19 you can just open 1♣.

 

As for the poll question, I am not sure what to vote. Of course it is possible to play a system in which 2♣ is not strong and artificial and in which a 2-level shift is GF. Meckwell Precision, for example. Is that what you are asking?

[Vampyr]

I am not sure what 2♦=Acol means. 2♦ is any GF hand?

 

Yes, it seems he means Benjy.

[dokoko]

Move this to the non-natural forum, where it belongs.

[The_Badger]

Hello Kapi. Welcome to the forum :)

 

An honest opinion. Inventing a system around the 'destructiveness' of very weak bids when non-vulnerable might scare a few older folk (and even some of the younger guys too) at the bridge club or inexperienced players on BBO, however it will probably get countered more often than not by seasoned professionals. But you will get tops your way admittedly.

 

However it's your bridge game, not mine, so play what you feel comfortable with. You have to have a bid available for big hands, be it 1♣, 2♣, or 2♦ so replacing your 2♦ Acol bid with an Ekren-style weak bid means you have to incorporate your big hand bid somewhere else into the system. So, in theory, you can have a 2/1-based system without an Acol 2♣ or 2♦ opener.

 

I had a quick look at your profile Kapi and yes, when I was your age I was always trying to tweak systems and conventions. Make my convention card more exciting. But certain systems and ideas in bridge do stand the test of time, so do bear that in mind too.

 

And good luck with your bridge. And as I say to many players: Winning is great, but enjoying the game and the friends you make is even better :)

[nullve]

Right, I didn't know that. With a strong 1♣?

No, 1♣ = NAT or BAL (incl. 5D(332), excl. 5M(332)), 2♦ = 23+ BAL or GF.

[Kapi Blas]

I am not sure what 2♦=Acol means. 2♦ is any GF hand? In that case, swap 2♣ and 2♦. Anyway, 2♣ as a generic GF (including 23-24 balanced if those hands can't be put into 2♦) is a better use than 2♣=18-19. With 18-19 you can just open 1♣.

 

As for the poll question, I am not sure what to vote. Of course it is possible to play a system in which 2♣ is not strong and artificial and in which a 2-level shift is GF. Meckwell Precision, for example. Is that what you are asking?

 

2 ♦ ACOL is any GF band or 23+ balanced. I swaped 2♣ with 2♦ beacause it leaves your more bidding room after more common opening. Opening 2♣ as 18-19 HCP balanced is much better than opening this as 1♣. Your oponents cant interfere that easily and you can still play 2M from the right hand if you dont have enough to go higher. The second thing is that you can use 2NT rebid after opening 1m for some strong single suited hands or anything you want. Meckwell Precision is a strong club system and not a natural one so thats not quite what i meant. ;-)

[The_Badger]

2 ♦ ACOL is any GF band or 23+ balanced. I swaped 2♣ with 2♦ beacause it leaves your more bidding room after more common opening. Opening 2♣ as 18-19 HCP balanced is much better than opening this as 1♣. Your oponents cant interfere that easily and you can still play 2M from the right hand if you dont have enough to go higher. The seconda thing is that you can use 2NT rebid after opening 1m for some strong single suited hands or anything you want. Meckwell Precision is a strong club system and not a naturalne one do thats not quite what i meant. ;-)

 

Personally I don't like 2♣ as 18-19 balanced only. Just my opinion. It covers too small a percentage of hands. If you want to use 2♣ as some multi-coloured bid, in a similar way that Acol has a Multi 2♦ then I feel that would suit it better.

[Kapi Blas]

Hello Kapi. Welcome to the forum :)

 

An honest opinion. Inventing a system around the 'destructiveness' of very weak bids when non-vulnerable might scare a few older folk (and even some of the younger guys too) at the bridge club or inexperienced players on BBO, however it will probably get countered more often than not by seasoned professionals. But you will get tops your way admittedly.

 

However it's your bridge game, not mine, so play what you feel comfortable with. You have to have a bid available for big hands, be it 1♣, 2♣, or 2♦ so replacing your 2♦ Acol bid with an Ekren-style weak bid means you have to incorporate your big hand bid somewhere else into the system. So, in theory, you can have a 2/1-based system without an Acol 2♣ or 2♦ opener.

 

I had a quick look at your profile Kapi and yes, when I was your age I was always trying to tweak systems and conventions. Make my convention card more exciting. But certain systems and ideas in bridge do stand the test of time, so do bear that in mind too.

 

And good luck with your bridge. And as I say to many players: Winning is great, but enjoying the game and the friends you make is even better :)

 

Hello Badger. Thank you very much for your honest reply. :-)

 

Bridge community is really awesome, helpful and caring. I can't count all of these amazing people i met by playing and enjoying bridge. The only bad thing i figured out about bridge community is that it is too conservative. Im often playing in some regional tournaments in my country and i can't name anyone who would be playing any other system than Polish Club or Martens-Przybora system called Strefa. At the professional level there is 1 Polish pair that plays 2/1 system, that is Kalita-Nowosadzki, everybody else is playing Polish Club. As you said lots of convention and systems do stand the test of time but i can't say honestly that this makes them best available. Bridge bidding is still evolving and thing such as for example transfering colour that youve opened during the slam try bidding is used only by some of the top World Class pairs. It isnt very hard tool and it can be used by any regular partnership but people found this unnatural. Best professional pairs bid really aggresively for example Meckwells. If you will not force your oponents to make mistakes they won't do any at the higher level. Obviously you can use any even most conservative openings and still be very solid Player or even one of the greatest because your card Play is very very good. That's my opinion and it may change when i will have as much experience as you ;-)

[nullve]

Opening 2♣ as 18-19 HCP balanced is much better than opening this as 1♣. Your oponents cant interfere that easily and you can still play 2M from the right hand if you dont have enough to go higher. The second thing is that you can use 2NT rebid after opening 1m for some strong single suited hands or anything you want.

Your opponents cant interfere that easily

 

True. Also true if 2♣ (also? instead?) included some weak hand type that you now have to pass with.

 

you can still play 2M from the right hand if you dont have enough to go higher

 

When Responder has 4 M but not enough to force to game, he will usually have to either transfer to 2M and pass (risking a 4-2 M fit) or transfer to 2N (possibly missing a 4-4 M fit) and pass. So will you usually get to 2M when it's right?

 

Getting to/right-siding 2M and avoiding 3M is easy if you open 1♣ with 18-19 BAL and play the right kind of T-Walsh.

 

The second thing is that you can use 2NT rebid after opening 1m for some strong single suited hands or anything you want.

Many (most?) T-Walsh players already do that.

[The_Badger]

Hello Badger. Thank you very much for your honest reply. :-)

 

You're welcome, Kapi. You probably have a lot more experience than me already as you are playing tournaments regularly which is something I can no longer do. There are far, far better players than me that comment on these forums, and many play regular top-class tournament bridge. Sometimes I just have trouble keeping up. As you say bridge bidding is always evolving.

[Zelandakh]

My system base is:-

--

1♣ = 15+ bal; or 15+ nat; or 18+ any

1♦ = 10-17, 4+ diamonds, unbal

1♥ = 10-17, 5+ hearts, unbal

1♠ = 10-17, 5+ spades, unbal

1NT = (11)12-14 bal

2♣ = 10-14, 5♣4M or 6+ clubs

2♦ = mini-multi

2M = Muiderberg

2NT = both minors, weak

--

 

This can be found in a number of systems and can be combined with a number of different follow-ups (mine is relay-based). Perhaps this might work for you and provide some inspiration (without the relays).

[Zelandakh]

Oh yes, and as further grist for the mill, the system I was working on before this one used 2-under transfer openings to avoid requiring any strong opening whatsoever. That is another option if you want to move in that direction.

[helene_t]

2 ♦ ACOL is any GF band or 23+ balanced. I swaped 2♣ with 2♦ beacause it leaves your more bidding room after more common opening. Opening 2♣ as 18-19 HCP balanced is much better than opening this as 1♣. Your oponents cant interfere that easily and you can still play 2M from the right hand if you dont have enough to go higher. The second thing is that you can use 2NT rebid after opening 1m for some strong single suited hands or anything you want. Meckwell Precision is a strong club system and not a natural one so thats not quite what i meant. ;-)

OK, that are some fair points.

 

As for whether 2♦ as any GF is manageable, I suppose it depends how strong hands you are comfortable opening at the 1-level. Personally, I hate auctions that start with

1♥-1♠

3♦*

(* could among many other things be a 3-card diamonds and 6+ hearts and too strong for a 3♥ rebid (maybe even too strong for a 4♥ rebid) but not strong enough for a 2♣ opening).

 

So I like to open hand like x-AKQxxxx-AKx-xx with 2♣ and maybe even x-AKQxx-KQJxx-Ax but that is of course a matter of taste.

 

As for playing 2M from the right side, you can still do that play transfer responses to a 1♣ opening. But I agree that opening 1♣ with 18-19 points balanced is awkward if opponents interfere.

[Cyberyeti]

OK, that are some fair points.

 

As for whether 2♦ as any GF is manageable, I suppose it depends how strong hands you are comfortable opening at the 1-level. Personally, I hate auctions that start with

1♥-1♠

3♦*

(* could among many other things be a 3-card diamonds and 6+ hearts and too strong for a 3♥ rebid (maybe even too strong for a 4♥ rebid) but not strong enough for a 2♣ opening).

 

So I like to open hand like x-AKQxxxx-AKx-xx with 2♣ and maybe even x-AKQxx-KQJxx-Ax but that is of course a matter of taste.

 

As for playing 2M from the right side, you can still do that play transfer responses to a 1♣ opening. But I agree that opening 1♣ with 18-19 points balanced is awkward if opponents interfere.

 

The way round this problem is to play some sort of GF gadget rebid (we use 2N which is easier to do playing a weak NT), or to play change of suit as "forcing if you had a real response" or to play gazilli.

[Kapi Blas]

OK, that are some fair points.

 

As for whether 2♦ as any GF is manageable, I suppose it depends how strong hands you are comfortable opening at the 1-level. Personally, I hate auctions that start with

1♥-1♠

3♦*

(* could among many other things be a 3-card diamonds and 6+ hearts and too strong for a 3♥ rebid (maybe even too strong for a 4♥ rebid) but not strong enough for a 2♣ opening).

 

So I like to open hand like x-AKQxxxx-AKx-xx with 2♣ and maybe even x-AKQxx-KQJxx-Ax but that is of course a matter of taste.

 

As for playing 2M from the right side, you can still do that play transfer responses to a 1♣ opening. But I agree that opening 1♣ with 18-19 points balanced is awkward if opponents interfere.

 

I'm OK with opening very strong but not GF hands on 1 level. I play gazilli which should be a part of every 2/1 system in my opinion. While opening 1M and 1OM or 1NT response 2♣ is 11-15 with 4+♣ or 16+ any. Responder bids 2♦ with 8+ HCP "waiting" and openers 2M bid shows 11-15 HCP with clubs and every other response is 16+ and GF. For example the auction you mentioned:

 

1♥ -1♠

3♦

 

is showing 14-16 HCP hand with 5♥ and 5♦. Very usefull bidding tool played by most of the Italian pairs.

[Cyberyeti]

I'm OK with opening very strong but not GF hands on 1 level. I play gazilli which should be a part of every 2/1 system in my opinion. While opening 1M and 1OM or 1NT response 2♣ is 11-15 with 4+♣ or 16+ any. Responder bids 2♦ with 8+ HCP "waiting" and openers 2M bid shows 11-15 HCP with clubs and every other response is 16+ and GF. For example the auction you mentioned:

 

1♥ -1♠

3♦

 

is showing 14-16 HCP hand with 5♥ and 5♦. Very usefull bidding tool played by most of the Italian pairs.

 

Interesting, we use the jump rebid for something similar but slightly different, 2 good 5+ card suits but not a good hand, can be a touch weaker than 14, we work off suit quality more than points. AQJxx, KQ10xx and out is fine.

[Kapi Blas]

My system base is:-

--

1♣ = 15+ bal; or 15+ nat; or 18+ any

1♦ = 10-17, 4+ diamonds, unbal

1♥ = 10-17, 5+ hearts, unbal

1♠ = 10-17, 5+ spades, unbal

1NT = (11)12-14 bal

2♣ = 10-14, 5♣4M or 6+ clubs

2♦ = mini-multi

2M = Muiderberg

2NT = both minors, weak

--

 

This can be found in a number of systems and can be combined with a number of different follow-ups (mine is relay-based). Perhaps this might work for you and provide some inspiration (without the relays).

 

Your system is very similar to Polish Club played in my country. I think that the biggest problem with strong club systems is they can't handle strong balanced hands. In your system all 15+ balanced holdings are in 1♣ opening. So its pretty hard to bid them in competetive auction .

[Kapi Blas]

Interesting, we use the jump rebid for something similar but slightly different, 2 good 5+ card suits but not a good hand, can be a touch weaker than 14, we work off suit quality more than points. AQJxx, KQ10xx and out is fine.

 

It is just the matter of partnership agreements, everyone can play what they are comfortable with. The most important thing in modern bridge is too bid on lower level with strong possibly slam hands and higher with weaker ones. Here is the example:

 

1♠-2♣"waiting" - i play this as GF with clubs, GF balanced, GF with exactly 3 card fit or 9-11 6+ minor invitational

2♦*- ?

 

*relay

 

2♥ - GF with clubs denies 3 spades

2♠ - 15+ HCP with 3 spades, slam try

2NT - GF balanced, relay, denies 3 spades

3♣ - 9-11 with 6+ ♣ invitational

3♦ - 9-11 with 6+ ♦ invitational

3♠ - 12-14 HCP with 3 spades

[Cyberyeti]

It is just the matter of partnership agreements, everyone can play what they are comfortable with. The most important thing in modern bridge is too bid on lower level with strong possibly slam hands and higher with weaker ones. Here is the example:

 

1♠-2♣"waiting" - i play this as GF with clubs, GF balanced, GF with exactly 3 card fit or 9-11 6+ minor invitational

2♦*- ?

 

*relay

 

2♥ - GF with clubs denies 3 spades

2♠ - 15+ HCP with 3 spades, slam try

2NT - GF balanced, relay, denies 3 spades

3♣ - 9-11 with 6+ ♣ invitational

3♦ - 9-11 with 6+ ♦ invitational

3♠ - 12-14 HCP with 3 spades

 

These bids can be very successfully preempted. How well does your system work over 1♠-(P)-2♣-(3♦)-

 

I don't think people preempt ambiguous bids like this that are not always GF enough.

[Kapi Blas]

These bids can be very successfully preempted. How well does your system work over 1♠-(P)-2♣-(3♦)-

 

I don't think people preempt ambiguous bids like this that are not always GF enough.

 

Pass - minimum hand

Dbl - as every double to a preempt im my system it shows a better hand with possibly 6+spades or good support to clubs if they was invitational, forcing

3 hearths - 5-5 shape GF

3 spades - minimum hand with 6+ spades

3NT - any strong hand we would accept invite with 6+ clubs

4 diamonds - very strong one suited hand, almost ACOL