ATB missed game

[ahydra]

MPs, both vul, good but not expert opps

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sq432h942d752ckj9&n=sha5dajt8caqt7632&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1c(3%2B)d1sd2c3h(NAT%20INV)ppp]266|200[/hv]

 

NS playing weak NT with 5cM, better minor. 3NT and 5C are both on, who should do more? I guess North, but what?

 

ahydra

[rmnka447]

North has a 4 loser minor hand and should at least bid a 2 ♦ reverse over partner's 1 ♠ response. 2 ♣ is far too much of an underbid.

 

The question then becomes whether East will still bid 3 ♥ over North showing a powerful hand.

[mike777]

2c??? don't understand that bid

 

I am going to assume north was learning bridge...good teaching hand

 

2d seems normal rebid

 

IN any event north will never stop short of game after 1s

[johnu]

Quite a bold 2♣ bid by North. On a bad day, this could go for 1400 so I think that's all that North could do.

[The_Badger]

This is tricky. There is a 3♦ bid available for North (in the absence of any other agreements, like 3♦ being a splinter or 'Bergenesque' raise agreeing ♠ - unikely) It is known as a Jump Reverse guaranteeing at least 6-4 shape and 18-19 points and forcing to game.

 

Whether anyone uses it in today's game is another matter, or whether a different North would value his hand at a 18-19 count (the K and R evaluation is higher than that), or whether it would applicable after a takeout and responsive double by the opponents, or whether East still bids 3♥, are all open to question. But I believe it would make it easier for N/S to find the ♣ game certainly.

 

But taking away a whole level of bidding when a 2♦ reverse nearly conveys the same message is ludicrous!

[P_Marlowe]

MPs, both vul, good but not expert opps

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sq432h942d752ckj9&n=sha5dajt8caqt7632&d=n&v=b&b=13&a=1c(3%2B)d1sd2c3h(NAT%20INV)ppp]266|200[/hv]

 

NS playing weak NT with 5cM, better minor. 3NT and 5C are both on, who should do more? I guess North, but what?

 

ahydra

Hi,

 

North could bid 2D instead of 2C, showes 9+ cards, instead of only 5+ clubs.

It should also show a better than min. opening.

That being said, reaching 5C will be hard.

That 3NT is on with void vs. Qxxx is nice to know, but who should bid it without

knowing add. things you are not supposed to know.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Cyberyeti]

What was W's double ? this is often played as penalties, so the 3♥ bid is odd.

[Vampyr]

This is tricky. There is a 3♦ bid available for North (in the absence of any other agreements, like 3♦ being a splinter or 'Bergenesque' raise agreeing ♠ - unikely) It is known as a Jump Reverse guaranteeing at least 6-4 shape and 18-19 points and forcing to game.

 

Whether anyone uses it in today's game is another matter, or whether a different North would value his hand at a 18-19 count (the K and R evaluation is higher than that), or whether it would applicable after a takeout and responsive double by the opponents, or whether East still bids 3♥, are all open to question. But I believe it would make it easier for N/S to find the ♣ game certainly.

 

But taking away a whole level of bidding when a 2♦ reverse nearly conveys the same message is ludicrous!

 

Yes, this is why the default for a jump reverse is a splinter.

[wank]

I don't have a problem with 2c but you have to double 3h.

 

Starting with a tactical underbid on these shapely hands is often a good idea but you have to bare that in mind and be willing to bid strongly thereafter. For those who doubt the wisdom of this, 2c followed by double describes the hand far better than you could ever hope to achieve after starting with 2d or 3c.

[apollo1201]

North, North and North!

 

Not a huge fan of 2D with such a lopsided hand and a void in partner's suit, but am ok if partner bids this. And it is far better than a shy 2C and no more noise.

 

I would have bid a practical / agricultural 3C then partner with KJx despite his flat shape would support.

 

Not sure I'd bit one more for the road though with potentially D honors behind me and unsure value of the S goodies in partner's hand (only the A to park the losing H is good, or a suit headed by the J so no wastage).

[The_Badger]

I don't have a problem with 2c but you have to double 3h.

 

Starting with a tactical underbid on these shapely hands is often a good idea but you have to bare that in mind and be willing to bid strongly thereafter. For those who doubt the wisdom of this, 2c followed by double describes the hand far better than you could ever hope to achieve after starting with 2d or 3c.

 

I do see a degree of logic with this approach as North didn't have to bid 2♣ after the second double if he had a different hand, so 2♣ here (in this type of auction) probably indicates (by agreement) a 6+ carder with some extra values, and the double of 3♥ a little bit more. Far too subtle for me, I admit, but interesting.

[ahydra]

Double of 1S was described as red suits. Actually West had a 5=4=4=0 3-count.

 

I was North. I guess I am still learning, mike777, though that's probably not what you meant :) I condered 2D and 3C, but it doesn't look good with a void in spades and opps ostensibly possessing at least 7 diamonds, or 6 at the very least if East has made a slightly offshape TOX which was actually the case. Partner's hand could be as much as AKxxxx xxx xx xx and yet I'm never getting to those top spades (at least not before opps have already got their heart trick). Certainly if I had at least one spade I would have bid 2D and not thought twice; but with the misfit, I thought it best to stay low.

 

Double of 3H is an interesting one. I guess it would show something extra like this and hoping partner can bid 3NT with a suitable hand. It feels like there is a risk partner has nowhere to go and passes it out for -730 though.

 

ahydra

[mike777]

Double of 1S was described as red suits. Actually West had a 5=4=4=0 3-count.

 

I was North. I guess I am still learning, mike777, though that's probably not what you meant :) I condered 2D and 3C, but it doesn't look good with a void in spades and opps ostensibly possessing at least 7 diamonds, or 6 at the very least if East has made a slightly offshape TOX which was actually the case. Partner's hand could be as much as AKxxxx xxx xx xx and yet I'm never getting to those top spades (at least not before opps have already got their heart trick). Certainly if I had at least one spade I would have bid 2D and not thought twice; but with the misfit, I thought it best to stay low.

 

Double of 3H is an interesting one. I guess it would show something extra like this and hoping partner can bid 3NT with a suitable hand. It feels like there is a risk partner has nowhere to go and passes it out for -730 though.

 

ahydra

 

Yes South may only have the hand you describe....but this is imps...be not afraid....I would never stop short of game at imps after pard makes a free bid of 1s at vul.

 

Given the OP auction If only allowed one bid after 3h and pards pass I would try 5c. If anything West double of 1s would encourage me that pard may have outside values if I had any doubt.

 

I would encourage you to just bid your hand and not be afraid of the diamond situation you are so worried about. 2d seems so clear. Now if pard passes 3h after you show a strong hand, pard does not try 3nt or penalty x..and west and east have shown spade values.....all the more reason to try 5c now. Yes pard may have a worthless hand.....be brave...:)

 

 

At the very least if I have not convinced you ....try 4c. Good luck.

[ahydra]

It's matchpoints not IMPs - as stated at top of OP. Also west double was red suits (I should have written that in the diagram, until I saw it mentioned here I'd forgotten some play that as psyche-exposing).

 

ahydra

[mike777]

It's matchpoints not IMPs - as stated at top of OP. Also west double was red suits (I should have written that in the diagram, until I saw it mentioned here I'd forgotten some play that as psyche-exposing).

 

ahydra

 

ahh ok...matchpoints....all the more reason to rebid 2d and bid over 3h....if pard passes over 3h....I mean what 4 hands do you construct for pard when you show a strong hand with c and d and pard passes over 3h? I will grant pard may have the worst possible hand, the very worst but as you state it is MP...one board.

[Kaitlyn S]

South was blameless. Some might think South could bid 4C here, but it's more likely to make West with three small clubs encouraged to bid 4H on poor values based on lack of club wastage than it is to buy the hand in 4C.

[rmnka447]

South was blameless. Some might think South could bid 4C here, but it's more likely to make West with three small clubs encouraged to bid 4H on poor values based on lack of club wastage than it is to buy the hand in 4C.

I'm not sure South bids 4 ♣ over East's 3 ♥ either whether North's second bid is 2 ♣ or 2 ♦.

 

With a 7-4 hand, I'd be awfully tempted to bid 4 ♣ as North though if 3 ♥ is passed back to me.

 

An interesting question is how the auction should develop if East passes after a 2 ♦ reverse. South's hand to me is an absolutely minimal hand despite the ♣ fit. So I'd think South would still make the potential negative/drop dead bid. If it's 2 NT (Ingbermann or 2 NT negative), or, 2 ♥ (cheapest of 4th suit or 2NT possible negative), then what does opener bid next? Playing Ingbermann, 3 ♣ accepts the signoff. Playing other methods 3 ♣ shows at least 6-4. Does opener have enough to jump to 4 ♣ instead?

[mike777]

I'm not sure South bids 4 ♣ over East's 3 ♥ either whether North's second bid is 2 ♣ or 2 ♦.

 

With a 7-4 hand, I'd be awfully tempted to bid 4 ♣ as North though if 3 ♥ is passed back to me.

 

An interesting question is how the auction should develop if East passes after a 2 ♦ reverse. South's hand to me is an absolutely minimal hand despite the ♣ fit. So I'd think South would still make the potential negative/drop dead bid. If it's 2 NT (Ingbermann or 2 NT negative), or, 2 ♥ (cheapest of 4th suit or 2NT possible negative), then what does opener bid next? Playing Ingbermann, 3 ♣ accepts the signoff. Playing other methods 3 ♣ shows at least 6-4. Does opener have enough to jump to 4 ♣ instead?

 

the answer to your question is really quite common

 

1c=1s

2d=2nt(art and weakish, deny 5s)

3c=?

 

----

 

 

does opener have enough to jump to 4c after 2nt...??

 

No no no ...not close

now the question becomes in context do you have extras or not as south if not then pass is easy.....if more then bid

---------------

 

 

If you want to question is it hard, very hard to bid game with 21 or 22 hcp in a minor suit ...gthe answer is yes

[johnu]

South was blameless. Some might think South could bid 4C here, but it's more likely to make West with three small clubs encouraged to bid 4H on poor values based on lack of club wastage than it is to buy the hand in 4C.

 

Blameless? I think 2♣ would get at most a 20/100 in a bidding contest.

[silvr bull]

I am surprised there were no objections to the 1S bid by South. I think South has an easy pass after the double of 1C. Playing a 12-14 NT, the 1C bid could be a balanced 15 HCP with only two or three Cs. If South has something weaker, like KJxxx xxx xxxx x, he must bid 1S to avoid the risk that West and North pass the double. North knows that South could have little more than S length and C shortness for his 1S bid, and that creates a concern for North. With values in Clubs and a minimum flat hand, I see no reason for South to bid over the double.

 

After West bids a red suit, North can bid 2C as a free bid to show long Cs and a better than minimum hand. After East bids 3H, South can raise to 4C with the values he did not show when he passed the double. Once North knows that South has values and a C fit, then North can risk the 5C bid.

[heart76]

Partner's hand could be as much as AKxxxx xxx xx xx

 

Double of 3H is an interesting one. I guess it would show something extra like this and hoping partner can bid 3NT with a suitable hand. It feels like there is a risk partner has nowhere to go and passes it out for -730 though.

 

ahydra

 

What would be 2S from S after 1C - X, instead of 1S? I suppose 1S denies 10 HCP. We use 2S for a trashy 6+ cards when all one has is in the bid suit.

 

I would also X E's 3H, but that would just be for S to pick a minor (my rebid suit + the unbid one), not suggesting NT in any way. I guess he can still take the chance with 2 H & S stops and at least 2 C... to get a bad taste in the mouth when it's down and 4-5C makes.

[sfi]

Blameless? I think 2♣ would get at most a 20/100 in a bidding contest.

 

I think you might have the directions mixed up - North bid 2C, not South. And 20/100 is generous for that action, but I'm sure you were just being polite.