Turbo - Odd or Even

[pescetom]

Indipendently by Turbo discussion i'm happy to read it about Culbertson Asking Bid (i have the old and new version) because i've tried to insert part of it in many my posts.

 

Please start a new thread as it is useful to keep this one about Turbo :D

[helene_t]

Wouldn't it be better to play if, say, hearts are trump:

4♠=0/3 4NT now asks for the queen

4NT=1/4 5♣ now asks for the queen and the diamond control, 5♦ only asks for diamond control

5♣2, no queen. 5♦ now asks for a diamond control

5♦2, queen, diamond control

5♥2, queen, no diamond control

 

I am just worried that the parity is not always enough to clarify the number of keycards held. But maybe Fantunes had a way to resolve the ambiguity :)

[Lovera]

Please start a new thread as it is useful to keep this one about Turbo :D

A question by me: have you almost heard to talk about Culbertson Asking Bid ?

[hamish32]

Wouldn't it be better to play if, say, hearts are trump:

4♠=0/3 4NT now asks for the queen

4NT=1/4 5♣ now asks for the queen and the diamond control, 5♦ only asks for diamond control

5♣2, no queen. 5♦ now asks for a diamond control

5♦2, queen, diamond control

5♥2, queen, no diamond control

 

I am just worried that the parity is not always enough to clarify the number of keycards held. But maybe Fantunes had a way to resolve the ambiguity :)

 

This structure looks more like Key Card with no asking bid first.

 

The main point of TURBO is to avoid getting into making one player captain and thus keeping both players in the decision making process. Its a mind set shift. Which ever partner knows the correct contract first they bid it all other bids are providing more information and expressing the fact that we are still looking. For example once a key card is missing we bid slam, once we don't have a suit held we bid game.

 

It seems to me in this thread that the issue of looking for the queen is being delt with two different ways by different partnerships- some are interested in finding the queen below the 5 level so they can avoid bad slams or slams on a hook in the trump suit. Others are interested in the Q once they are looking at bidding a grand.

 

For my self at imps I don't mind missing the Q as the second potential loser its often a two way finesse position and that I am happy to call a good slam if the rest of the hand is otherwise sound. Its often resolved by the lead if the opps don't know we are missing the Queen because we have not asked. If the hand is shaky and I don't have the Q I will tend to bid game and partner if partner has extras including the Q they will generally then TURBO knowing one thing I was looking at was no Queen. On the other hand once we are looking for grand the Q of trump is a top priority to locate below 6 of our trump suit - so we use 5NT as a cue for the Q suggesting all the keys (if all keys is not already known).

[pescetom]

I am just worried that the parity is not always enough to clarify the number of keycards held. But maybe Fantunes had a way to resolve the ambiguity :)

That's the least of problems when you actually play Turbo, believe me.

Much like "only" knowing that the number of Keycards is 1/4 or 0/3 after a RKCB :)

 

The real problems in my experience are:

(1) you give up other uses of 4NT and 5NT within the control-bid sequence, such as showing a further control in the last suit bid, or a simple waiting relay to "rightside" the bidding

(2) sometimes it will be the "wrong" partner who gets the opportunity to bid Turbo as his partner is not in a good position to judge the contract (but not that often)

(3) sometimes the need to bid Turbo will "wrongside" the bid about Clubs (but equally often it will "rightside" things).

[pescetom]

For my self at imps I don't mind missing the Q as the second potential loser its often a two way finesse position and that I am happy to call a good slam if the rest of the hand is otherwise sound. Its often resolved by the lead if the opps don't know we are missing the Queen because we have not asked. If the hand is shaky and I don't have the Q I will tend to bid game and partner if partner has extras including the Q they will generally then TURBO knowing one thing I was looking at was no Queen. On the other hand once we are looking for grand the Q of trump is a top priority to locate below 6 of our trump suit - so we use 5NT as a cue for the Q suggesting all the keys (if all keys is not already known).

 

Good points.

Of course those of us condemned to play MP tournaments are often looking to see if 6NT is possible even when 6 in a suit with 4 keycards looks sensible, and knowing about the Q can be vital for this.

 

Although we describe our 5NT bid as denial of the Q or extra length, it can also be used to warn about the lack of one keycard when partner does not know about the total number of keycards but should know (we hope) that we DO have the Q or extra length. Vice versa if partner knows that we already know that he has the Q, then he can assume that we hold all keycards.

On a good day :)

[hamish32]

Good points.

Of course those of us condemned to play MP tournaments are often looking to see if 6NT is possible even when 6 in a suit with 4 keycards looks sensible, and knowing about the Q can be vital for this.

 

Although we describe our 5NT bid as denial of the Q or extra length, it can also be used to warn about the lack of one keycard when partner does not know about the total number of keycards but should know (we hope) that we DO have the Q or extra length. Vice versa if partner knows that we already know that he has the Q, then he can assume that we hold all keycards.

On a good day :)

 

This is an interesting point about missing 6NT. I think its hard to optimize methods for everything. When I was thinking about missing 6NT I realised that we almost always use cue-bidding turbo when we have fitting hands and shape. It is very hard to know weather 6NT is a good idea once we have found a good 6m. For example on occasion I have bid 6NT in a turbo auction and gone light discovering 6m was already a near top. So I gave up - our turbo approach is optimized for suit slams. When we bid 6NT its generally on power and frequently via a quantitative 4NT or a key card sequence followed by 6NT.