Bidding Competition!

[ahydra]

I'm not sure I want to bid game on 2 or bid at all on 3, particularly if partner likes to open 11 BAL hands. On 2 we're not vul, have a flat 12, no trick source, no guaranteed diamond fit and partner can't have much of a heart stop given we hold four cards (nor much of a hand given he passed 2H). 3NT will be dicey at best, and where are we going if partner has a singleton in hearts? I would just compete to the 3-level - 2NT if that's understood as both minors, else 3D.

 

On 3 we have a very defensive hand, opps are likely taking 3 hearts off the top (with a signal from one player or the other to pinpoint their defence), and if partner is unluckily 3433 then we end up going to the 3-level in a 4-3 fit. (Even if partner has four, or indeed five, clubs 3C still might be tough.) I suppose the idea is to get out for -50 against -110 but this is IMPs, not MPs. I agree though that if we do compete 2S is a good call, as this must show three of them and hoping partner has four.

 

It's worth noting that if you play a weak NT then bidding on 3 looks a lot more attractive, as now partner is likely to have five clubs.

 

I agree with the answers on 1 and 4 and think I would have made them at the table. Perhaps on the other two hands I'm just not trusting enough in my declarer play - probably quite correctly :ph34r:

 

ahydra

[MrAce]

1. 1NT, particularly if Timo is my partner ;)

 

 

Only reason why I did not bid NT is, if pd is short in clubs I do not want to discourage him. My 2nd choice was 2♦

[nullve]

FYI. expert consensus is to jump to 3♥ with 6♥ and weak hands.

Yes, and the reason is that 3♥ is Law-protected opposite a "normal" takeout double. But don't you play 3♥ as GF opposite 19 BAL? Then you can't jump to 3♥ also on a 6H(322) 2 count.

 

They knew exactly what they were doing as did I. Just because you do not understand them does not mean they do not know what they are doing. http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

[hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1cp1n2hpp]133|100[/hv]

• Your pd can easily hold 4423 or 4333 shape. So unless you are passing, only correct call is 2♠ so you do not have to play a 4-3 fit at 3 level instead of 2 level.
• Even if you have a 4-4 fit, playing a 4-3 fit at 2 level, with hcps split equally for both sides, is preferable for most.
• You already denied 4 card major with 1 NT so there is no chance of it being misunderstood (for experts)

I hope that helps you to have a better understanding of the reasons behind their votes. http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

"So unless you are passing". But I am passing, for reasons having to do with LoTT and the fact that partner didn't double 2♥ (for takeout). IMO you've only given (valid) reasons why 2♠ is the second best call.¹

 

¹ 18 Jul 2017, after reading Gnasher's post: I forgot that X is an option. IMO 2♠ < X < P.

[MrAce]

I agree with the answers on 1 and 4 and think I would have made them at the table. Perhaps on the other two hands I'm just not trusting enough in my declarer play - probably quite correctly :ph34r:

 

ahydra

 

A good solution is to improve your declarer play instead of lowering the bar for bidding due to your declarer skills. Once you make the improve, you will see that many bids which look strange to you now will start to look reasonable. In many auctions I find myself playing and/or defending the hand in my mind before the auction is over.

[MrAce]

But don't you play 3♥ as GF opposite 19 BAL? Then you can't jump to 3♥ also on a 6H(322) 2 count.

 

I have no idea, whatsoever, about what you tried to say here.

 

 

"So unless you are passing". But I am passing, for reasons having to do with LoTT and the fact that partner didn't double 2♥ (for takeout). IMO you've only given (valid) reasons why 2♠ is the second best call.

 

Yes, pass is the 2nd best call imo. You disagree with me, I know, but those panel members are not my beer buddies, they are there for a reason.http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif

 

 

[Thiros]

Hand #1 is Problem B from the Master Solvers Club, February 1996:

 

http://www.bridgewor...sampler-ms.html

 

Back when I was a beginner in my first year of playing, that problem was in the Article Sampler on the Bridge World's website....... and now, 18 years later, it is still there!

[MrAce]

Hand #1 is Problem B from the Master Solvers Club, February 1996:

 

http://www.bridgewor...sampler-ms.html

 

Back when I was a beginner in my first year of playing, that problem was in the Article Sampler on the Bridge World's website....... and now, 18 years later, it is still there!

 

Probably all of them are.

 

These 4 were asked in facebook bridge group.

 

 

 

[Zelandakh]

Only reason why I did not bid NT is, if pd is short in clubs I do not want to discourage him. My 2nd choice was 2♦

I think 2♥ comes across as more discouraging than 1NT. Perhaps 2♣ is a better way of showing some values though. I was looking for a Goldilocks effect with 1NT but I seem to be on my own with that so it is probably a poor idea.

[The_Badger]

Great quiz, Timo. And well done for getting 380 out of 400.

 

Personally the one bid I do find awkward to swallow is the 2♠ on hand 3 - all your comments on the forum duly noted. Just why would you want to play in a Moysian fit knowing that West is long in ♥ and could well be short in ♠? It could be a small disaster.

 

For all we know East could have a singleton (even potentially a void) in ♥s, with no place to go, and a stack of ♠s, but with a hand that just wasn't good enough to overcall at the one level.

[MrAce]

I think 2♥ comes across as more discouraging than 1NT. Perhaps 2♣ is a better way of showing some values though. I was looking for a Goldilocks effect with 1NT but I seem to be on my own with that so it is probably a poor idea.

 

1♠ is not forcing so 2♥ can not be as discouraging as people make of it.

[wank]

Huh?

Your pd opened and you have 12 count including AAK and no wasted hcps, and you call making a cuebid a "gross overbid"? I think your comment is a "gross overbid" http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

No wonder the panel disagrees with you.

 

If partner has heart shortage I expect he'll realise how good a hand he has once I support diamonds. If partner's not short in hearts, game is a long way off, 12 HCP or otherwise.

[MrAce]

If partner has heart shortage I expect he'll realise how good a hand he has once I support diamonds. If partner's not short in hearts, game is a long way off, 12 HCP or otherwise.

 

Oh no, please don't tell me you would not compete to 3♦ with much less than this http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

Take out one of your aces and make your diamonds 4 card and you are still bidding 3♦ all day long.

[Tramticket]

Great quiz - thanks.

 

Yes, I can see now that my 3♣ on 3 was silly. In my defence, I am used to playing a weak NT 4-card major system and partners bid will be real (and often a 5-card suit).

[Zelandakh]

1♠ is not forcing so 2♥ can not be as discouraging as people make of it.

Wouldn't everyone bid 2♥ here with ♠x ♥xxxxxx ♦xxx ♣xxx? If 2♥ were purely constructive it would be ideal but playing that way means not being able to improve the contract on hands where that would be useful. Since we have 2♣ (et al) available for genuinely constructive hands, giving up on the non-constructive ones seems like a losing strategy.

[MrAce]

Wouldn't everyone bid 2♥ here with ♠x ♥xxxxxx ♦xxx ♣xxx? If 2♥ were purely constructive it would be ideal but playing that way means not being able to improve the contract on hands where that would be useful. Since we have 2♣ (et al) available for genuinely constructive hands, giving up on the non-constructive ones seems like a losing strategy.

 

2♥ is neither constructive nor discouraging. With the hand you gave I would pass.

[nullve]

I have no idea, whatsoever, about what you tried to say here.

Let me try again:

 

Suppose Advancer has

 

a) 2 hcp, 1633

b) 6 hcp, 1633.

 

He knows that partner can have e.g.

 

c) 19 hcp, 4243

d) 19 hcp, 5143,

 

so if the style is to respond 3♥ to the double on both a) and b), partner will not now what to do over that with c) or d), and also the partership may be too high already.

 

So even with the (standard expert) agreement that 3♥ is PRE, why not bid

 

* (1♣)-X-1♥; 1N-2♥; P with a) opposite c);

* (1♣)-X-1♥; 1♠-2♥¹; P with a) opposite d)

 

and e.g.

 

* (1♣)-X-3♥; 4♥-P with b) opposite c);

* (1♣)-X-3♥; 3♠-3N; P with b) opposite d)

 

?

 

¹ It's pointless to rebid 2♥ over

 

(1♣)-X-1♥; 1♠

 

on a 5-card suit, because there's no way a 5-3 H fit can be missed after

 

(1♣)-X-1♥; 1♠-1N/2♣.

[rhm]

I wouöd loose this particular competition by a mile.

 

So I won the competition, with 350 out of 400. :)

Still:

I would have bid 1N at the table on board 1. 2♥ ought to promise 6+ H.

FYI. expert consensus is to jump to 3♥ with 6♥ and weak hands.

Weak is a relative term. If you hold a yarborough chances are your partner has a strong hand, quite possibly too strong to overcall.

Does jumping to 3♥ make sense under those conditions with six small hearts? Good luck thereafter.

I still think rebidding 2♥ should show at least either a better suit or at least a more unbalanced hand.

I maintain 1NT is not a distortion, it keeps the bidding low and is quite a descriptive bid. It shows values in context and a balanced hand.

2♥ shows neither.

As to stoppers, we are bidding 1NT not 3NT.

Note 1♣ as a rule does not even promise length in clubs and I can not see why the much weaker hand, which got less than 25% of the combined values, needs to provide the stopper in this context.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[wank]

Oh no, please don't tell me you would not compete to 3♦ with much less than this http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

Take out one of your aces and make your diamonds 4 card and you are still bidding 3♦ all day long.

 

True but I'm doubling with the hand given. I expect to bid 3d next.

[Winstonm]

FYI. expert consensus is to jump to 3♥ with 6♥ and weak hands.

 

 

 

 

They knew exactly what they were doing as did I. Just because you do not understand them does not mean they do not know what they are doing. http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

 

[hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1dp1n2hpp]133|100[/hv]

 

• Your pd can easily hold 4432 or 4333 or 4243 shape. So unless you are passing, only correct call is 2♠ so you do not have to play a 4-3 fit at 3 level instead of 2 level.
• No need to mention, if you have a 4-4 ♣ fit, bidding 2♠ now does not prevent us from finding club fit
• Even if you have a 4-4 fit, playing a 4-3 fit at 2 level, with hcps split equally for both sides, is preferable for most.
• You already denied 4 card major with 1 NT so there is no chance of it being misunderstood (for experts)

I hope that helps you to have a better understanding of the reasons behind their votes. http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

 

EDIT: When I voted, I knew it would be between pass and 2♠ and I admit when I voted for 2♠ I was not expecting it to get the top score (despite believing that it is) because most of the expert panel members are like allergic to any undiscussed artificial bids. Which is very reasonable approach but even they voted for 2♠!

 

My question on this board you bid 2S on is not your well-reasoned bid but the question of whether or not you should bid at all?

[rmnka447]

Wouldn't everyone bid 2♥ here with ♠x ♥xxxxxx ♦xxx ♣xxx? If 2♥ were purely constructive it would be ideal but playing that way means not being able to improve the contract on hands where that would be useful. Since we have 2♣ (et al) available for genuinely constructive hands, giving up on the non-constructive ones seems like a losing strategy.

I think you pass with that hand as partner has shown the strong ♠ overcall and you've bid your full values with your first bid. There's no reason to think partner has any ♥ and that ♥ will play better than ♠. Give partner something like ♠ KQJxxx ♥ x ♦ AQx ♣ Axx and you're making 8 or 9 tricks in ♠ while losing 6 or 7 tricks in ♥.

[MrAce]

My question on this board you bid 2S on is not the your well-reasoned bid but the question of whether or not you should bid at all?

 

It is a close decision Winstonm. I almost always bid when it is close decision, because bidding

 

a-can win by making

b-can win by being the par bid.

c-can win mostly by convincing opponents to make another move even when it is wrong to bid.

d-you do not get punished at 2 level when your side has at least 20 hcp at expert level. People do not do things that brings random outcomes at expert level.

e-as oppose to forums where people show you how double dummy defense defeats, in real life they usually suck at defense.

 

Everything I gained by experience tells me to bid on this deal. As you see the votes of world class players, they are split between pass and 2♠ but with significant majority voting for 2♠. Of course this does not prove anything but shows which action their experience favors.

[MrAce]

Let me try again:

 

Suppose Advancer has

 

a) 2 hcp, 1633

b) 6 hcp, 1633.

 

He knows that partner can have e.g.

 

c) 19 hcp, 4243

d) 19 hcp, 5143,

 

 

 

3♥ bid can not be 6 hcp. The most common usage of it shows a J high or Q high 6 card suit and out, that is pretty much it. With 6331 and 6 hcp you start 2♥.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PhantomSac]

Count me in the wank camp, I hate bidding on hand 3 :/

 

It would be more tempting if they had a fit auction (like they had bid and raised), but I think our best chance of going plus on this hand is defending when they do not have a fit. Even if we catch a 4-3 spade fit or a 4-4 club fit we haven't gone plus yet.

 

I thought hand 1 was very interesting. Hand 4, are the people who are not bidding 6S trying to get to 7, or trying to get to hearts, or trying to stop in 5 (?). There are lots of fancy things you can do but it's going to be tough to diagnose when grand is good and you need a lot with no trump honors and only 1 ace, and not even a solid heart suit, so just bidding 6S seems practical to me.

[MrAce]

Count me in the wank camp, I hate bidding on hand 3 :/

 

 

His main objection was on board 2. Not 3. Pass is of course very reasonable for me on 3 but I just can't find myself agree or have sympathy with his view on board 2.

[PhantomSac]

His main objection was on board 2. Not 3.

 

3 isnt very interesting imo. You need to be marking on the Nigel scale for anything except pass to score points