Your responses to partner's 2 Clubs opening bid?

[cartruck]

Playing SAYC (heavily modified), playing weak 2 Majors and modified Flannery for 2♦ (weak 2♦ bid is pretty worthless), how do you respond to your partner's strong and artificial 2♣ opening?

 

I like Controls, and here's how it goes:

 

2♦ = No Aces

2♥ = 1 Ace or 2 Kings

2♠ = AK in the same suit

2NT = Ace and King in different suits or 3 Kings

3♣ = Anything better

 

What do you all play?

[sfi]

My favourite has always been:

 

2D = waiting, most hands

New suit = good 5+ card suit, probably 2 of top 3 or 3 of top 5 honours

2NT = I don't want to play in this partnership any more

3NT = unspecified solid 7+ card suit

[cartruck]

My favourite has always been:

 

2D = waiting, most hands

New suit = good 5+ card suit, probably 2 of top 3 or 3 of top 5 honours

2NT = I don't want to play in this partnership any more

3NT = unspecified solid 7+ card suit

 

It's that "Waiting" 2♦ bid I can't stand. Although, I think most people do play that. I don't want to wait, let's get there. ;)

[sfi]

Mostly I want the responder to stay out of my way before I start describing a good hand. If they have controls I care about, we'll find out soon enough.

[cartruck]

Mostly I want the responder to stay out of my way before I start describing a good hand. If they have controls I care about, we'll find out soon enough.

 

Not when the opponents preempt after the 2♦ bid, like they frequently do. Then you're almost bidding blind at game level+. Using Controls, you eliminate a good deal of the equation right off the bat.

[manudude03]

I find interference after 2C-2D is a lot less frequent than the initial 2C bid. Anyway, I also play 2D as waiting. I find control bids get in the way of finding your fits which is more important than finding controls which you can likely find out about later.

[cartruck]

I find interference after 2C-2D is a lot less frequent than the initial 2C bid. Anyway, I also play 2D as waiting. I find control bids get in the way of finding your fits which is more important than finding controls which you can likely find out about later.

 

You can not stop interference immediately after the 2♣ bid. You can however get probably all the information you need to set the contract where it should be (assuming interference after the 2♦ bid), and explore slam possibilities right away if your partner immediately tells you how strong his/her hand is.

[manudude03]

You can not stop interference immediately after the 2♣ bid. You can however get probably all the information you need to set the contract where it should be (assuming interference after the 2♦ bid), and explore slam possibilities right away if your partner immediately tells you how strong his/her hand is.

 

If you are getting these hands where you know where you want to play, but fear interference, then maybe you should be looking at the hands you choose to open 2C on rather than coming up with a solution to a problem which shouldn't exist. Meanwhile, it's not like control bids solves all your problems after interference anyway.

 

Take a hand like AQxxx x AKx AKQx, you open 2C, get a 2H response, and the next hand bids say 4H. Partner could easily have any of the following:

xx Axx xxxxx xxx - You are probably best defending this.

JTx Axx QJxx xxx - 6S is excellent

Kx Kxx QJxxx xxx - 6D is best

x Axxx Qxxx Jxxx - You belong in 6C.

 

I'm not saying that a waiting 2D solves this problem, but I'd prefer only having problems getting to the right strain when there is competition as opposed to always when partner has some useful holding.

[Kaitlyn S]

My favourite has always been:

 

2D = waiting, most hands

New suit = good 5+ card suit, probably 2 of top 3 or 3 of top 5 honours

2NT = I don't want to play in this partnership any more

3NT = unspecified solid 7+ card suit

It seems as though you could switch the meanings of 2NT and 3NT and have more room for description :D

[sfi]

It seems as though you could switch the meanings of 2NT and 3NT and have more room for description :D

 

Not so - I have an entire structure for continuations over 2NT. Surely this is a conversation best held at the table.

 

A relay system works well here. ;)

[rmnka447]

After 2 ♣, I normally play the following responses -

 

2 ♦ - waiting

 

2 ♥, 2 ♠ - shows 5+ cards to 2 honors and at least 1 1/2 QTs

 

2 NT - undefined as of now

 

3 ♣, 3 ♦ - shows 5+ cards to 2 of top 3 honors and at least 2 QTs.

 

3 of a major or higher suit response - 7+ card suit usually not better QJxxxxx(x..) nothing else in hand

 

-

After the 2 ♦ response and opener's rebid is a suit

 

cheapest suit - second negative

 

2 NT - unspecified positive (5 -20 pts)

 

new suit bid - forward going showing a suit feature (limited by only by failure to make a 1st round positive)

 

single raise of opener's suit - Minimum 8+ and normally Hxx or xxxx support - strongest raise

 

jump to game in opener's suit - about 4 max with fit - not forward going

 

 

Using 2 ♦ as a waiting bid gives opener a chance to start describing their hand as economically as possible. It's often easier for the strong hand to tell than responder to try to describe their hand.

 

I normally don't play an immediate 2 ♥ response to 2 ♣ as a second negative hand. When opener has a 2 suiter, it risks losing a suit with responder likely to pass the rebid. Opener has to guess which to rebid.

[cartruck]

If you are getting these hands where you know where you want to play, but fear interference, then maybe you should be looking at the hands you choose to open 2C on rather than coming up with a solution to a problem which shouldn't exist. Meanwhile, it's not like control bids solves all your problems after interference anyway.

 

Take a hand like AQxxx x AKx AKQx, you open 2C, get a 2H response, and the next hand bids say 4H. Partner could easily have any of the following:

xx Axx xxxxx xxx - You are probably best defending this.

JTx Axx QJxx xxx - 6S is excellent

Kx Kxx QJxxx xxx - 6D is best

x Axxx Qxxx Jxxx - You belong in 6C.

 

I'm not saying that a waiting 2D solves this problem, but I'd prefer only having problems getting to the right strain when there is competition as opposed to always when partner has some useful holding.

 

2♦ waiting doesn't solve the problem at all. But, with Controls, I will love knowing those Aces and Kings you displayed there. I'd like that a lot.

[ahydra]

Controls works well when opener has a shapely hand with self-supporting suit(s) and only needs top cards for slam. Unfortunately that's a very small subset of 2C openers.

 

The general principle "strain before level" applies here. Find your fit first then determine whether slam is on or not. Where responder can bid suits naturally, opener may be able to bid two suits over high-level interference rather than one.

 

ahydra

[manudude03]

2♦ waiting doesn't solve the problem at all. But, with Controls, I will love knowing those Aces and Kings you displayed there. I'd like that a lot.

 

The point was if you are going to be messed around with after interference anyway, then you may as well get the non-competitive auctions right. Control bids don't work in either case.

[Vampyr]

We play 2♥ and 2♠ as wishing to play there opposite 20-21(22) balanced. After the Kokish relay we play 2NT as both minors, and 3m to play there opposite 20-21.

 

We have a lot of idle bids that we are thinking about. Hate controls a lot.

 

Unlike the OP, I like a weak 2♦. But if I couldn't have it I would not waste the bid on something like Flannery; I would play a Multi.

[cartruck]

We play 2♥ and 2♠ as wishing to play there opposite 20-21(22) balanced. After the Kokish relay we play 2NT as both minors, and 3m to play there opposite 20-21.

 

We have a lot of idle bids that we are thinking about. Hate controls a lot.

 

Unlike the OP, I like a weak 2♦. But if I couldn't have it I would not waste the bid on something like Flannery; I would play a Multi.

 

I don't care for Flannery a whole lot either, even our modified version, but after I tell my 9 card story I am almost always the dummy hand which has a slight benefit, and it tells almost my entire hand quickly that I like a lot. I never could find something I truly loved that much for a 2♦ opening.

[MrAce]

I don't care for Flannery a whole lot either, even our modified version, but after I tell my 9 card story I am almost always the dummy hand which has a slight benefit, and it tells almost my entire hand quickly that I like a lot. I never could find something I truly loved that much for a 2♦ opening.

 

The biggest advantage of Flannery actually lies in the hands when you do not open 2♦. It particularly takes some serious weight off of auctions when one starts auction 1♥. Also in competition. Knowing that pd can not have side 4 card spades and a minimum hand helps a lot.

[Kungsgeten]

I usually play 2D waiting and a suit as to play vs 20-21 NT. However I think that transfers is a good (but complex) alternative. Here's a structure I've composed, which is tailored to 2C opener having 18-19 NT or any game force:

 

2D = 4+H or waiting (not suitable for other bids)

2H = 4+S

2S = Minor suit stayman. Weak or slam interested.

2NT = 5-5 majors.

3m = 5-4 minors, GF.

3M = 5-5 minirs and singleton M, GF.

 

More details here: http://snortingmaradonas.se/erik/mysystem/twoclubs18_19.html

[silvr bull]

Playing SAYC (heavily modified), playing weak 2 Majors and modified Flannery for 2♦ (weak 2♦ bid is pretty worthless), how do you respond to your partner's strong and artificial 2♣ opening?

 

I like Controls, and here's how it goes:

 

2♦ = No Aces

2♥ = 1 Ace or 2 Kings

2♠ = AK in the same suit

2NT = Ace and King in different suits or 3 Kings

3♣ = Anything better

 

What do you all play?

When I played controls, my 2NT was specifically three kings to get some small chance at right side when we play in NT. Now, I prefer 2H as an immediate "double negative" (to quickly tell my sad story and to caution opener against over enthusiasm), and 2D waiting with a king or better. If opener raises my weak 2H to 3H, then I can pass with a very bad hand. If opener bids a different suit, then I treat it as a one round force.

[msjennifer]

We do not like to be waiters.!

2D means less than 8 HCP ( or less than 1and 1/2 Culbertson tricks.)

2H/S means the bid suit 5or more cards and 8plus HCP.(or at least 1 and 1/2 tricks)

2NT means 8 plus HCP(or at least1and half tricks) balanced hand

3C/D means 5plus bid suit and 8 plus HCP(or at least 1and 1/2 tricks)

There are no responses beyond 3D.

Note: if the hand is 5332 and the five card suit is a 5 carder ,less than Q headed, minor we treat the hand as balanced and bid 2NT.

If opener over 2D,rebids 2NT(23/24 Balanced) we use Baron and major suit transfers.3S shows 5/4 in majors.

If opener rebids a suit then responder bids naturally.

Q-xxx-xxx-Axxxxx. Our bidding went.

2C-2D

2S-3C

4NT-5D(one Ace)

6S-7S (if missing the Q partner bids six then I must bid 7). Of course,the grand was cold.

[The_Badger]

I've been of the opinion (for a long time) that someone needs to write a modern definitive bridge book on 2♣ openings and their responses, including how to deal with overcalls, interference, etc. as it is long overdue.

 

The reason why it hasn't been done is probably the frequency of big hands - I believe that holding 22+HCPs (or QTs and/or controls, or however you define your strong 2♣ opener) is about a 125-1 chance - so we all get by with what is out there, be it controls, 2♦ waiting (positive or negative), or whatever takes our fancy.

 

I'm personally not a fan of 2♦ waiting but I do see its merits - rightsiding a contract, for example, preserving a level of bidding, etc - but it also gives a partnership headaches as the opening bidder sometimes cannot tell if his partner is bidding as a positive/semi-positive or a negative (except where there is a 2NT double negative incorporated into the mix.)

 

SAYC, for example, and this is what I read, blindly says that an opening 2♣ bidder should feel comfortable to bid to 3♥/3♠/4♣/4♦ on his own opposite a negative except with a balanced hand.

 

What it doesn't take into account is the majority of the hands that need to open 2♣ do not have long self-supporting suits and controls outside, and are more likely to 5-4-3-1 or 5-4-2-2 or similar shapes, and only work when a fit is found. (Also, when those 5-4-3-1/5-4-2-2, etc hands tend to be top heavy minorsuitwise they become awkward to bid.)

 

Even although I go against popular opinion, I actually like controls as virtually immediately (but not always) the opening 2♣ bidder - who should technically (and this is my opinion also) be in charge of the auction and final contract - can see where the hands are potentially heading. If controls are good enough for Jimmy Cayne (JEC) and his team they are good enough for me :)

 

The other problem I personally encounter is any positive response to a 2♣ opening automatically guarantees game being reached but not slam necessarily. There are plenty of hands in that positive hand territory (7-11HCPs as a rough example) that do not fit well with opener, but as opener has received a positive response he goes slamming, or perhaps worse, responder takes over the auction bouncing the partnership into an unmakeable slam..

 

The reason why I mention who controls a 2♣ auction is important as if you look at the Precision system it is invariably the opener who is in charge of the auction - not always but on the majority of occasions. That's probably one reason why the 2♦ waiting bid was introduced so that the 2♣ opener is primarily in the driving seat once again.

[Zelandakh]

What do you all play?

First of all, I would humbly suggest that control responses are more of an intermediate level discussion than an expert one. They were played a great deal in earlier days, particularly the 1950s but (with a few notable exceptions) have all but died out at the highest levels these days. The specific method posted is not one I have seen before and seems to me to have even more disadvantages than the more common versions. The closest I know of is Martelsby, in which the 2♠ response shows a 5+ card suit headed by 2 of the top 3. Specifically AK of the same suit strikes me as too narrow a target for the 3rd most important response.

 

My personal preference is for a base including 2♦ waiting and 2♥ as a bust. Whether the higher calls should be positives showing a suit or semi-positives is less critical and there a number of different structures possible. Fred for example has posted that he prefers a natural 2NT response to avoid some of the issues previously posted regarding the waiting 2♦. Given the 2♥ bust it also makes a lot of sense to use 2NT for a heart positive (or semi-positive if preferred), or to use it to incorporate transfer responses.

 

If you absolutely pinned me down I think I would choose 2♦ as positive or a (semi-)balanced SP; 2♥ DN; and 2♠/2NT/3m as SPs with a suit but I do not see the details as being critical to the success of a bidding system, so if my partner preferred something simpler, that would also be just fine, particularly if that allowed additional focus on a more important area of system design.

[nullve]

Even if the 2♣ opening is unlimited, if you look at specific shapes (say, 5143) you will find that the vast majority of hands will fall into a quite narrow hcp range (say, 22-25 if 5143). So it will be much easier for Opener, who we (can pretend we) "know" has a narrow range, to continue describing his hand (over a "waiting", but not mandatory, 2♦ response) than for Responder to begin describing his hand.

 

So I have no problem with a "waiting" 2♦ response that doesn't limit Responder's hand in any way. It's also part of the structure Vampyr described and which I hope will become standard one day.

 

(I actually think the sci-fi version of that played by Welland-Auken, where

 

2♣-?:

 

2♦ = 5+ H / waiting

...2♥ = NAT GF or 20-21 BAL

...(...)

2♥ = 5+ S

(...),

 

is even better, but I know many will struggle with the idea that Responder is allowed to pass 2♣-2♦; 2♥ on weak hands with 5+ H, gambling that partner has 20-21 BAL instead of the GF hand with 5+ H.)

[aawk]

Not when the opponents preempt after the 2♦ bid, like they frequently do. Then you're almost bidding blind at game level+. Using Controls, you eliminate a good deal of the equation right off the bat.

 

 

If your fear pre-empts by opponents include a weak hand into your 2♣ openings bid.

 

For example you can choose between a 6 card ♦, any 4441 5440 pattern or at least 5-4 in the majors.

 

I prefer the 6 card ♦ because with the other 2 options you loose 2♥ and 2♠ after a 2♦ relay to show a game forcing hand.

 

After 2♣ your responses are :

 

2♦ = relay (no other bid possible)

2♥/2♠/3♣ = good 5+ card and willing to play in 3♦ if partner is weak

2nt = forcing 15+ HCP

[cartruck]

If your fear pre-empts by opponents include a weak hand into your 2♣ openings bid.

 

For example you can choose between a 6 card ♦, any 4441 5440 pattern or at least 5-4 in the majors.

 

I prefer the 6 card ♦ because with the other 2 options you loose 2♥ and 2♠ after a 2♦ relay to show a game forcing hand.

 

After 2♣ your responses are :

 

2♦ = relay (no other bid possible)

2♥/2♠/3♣ = good 5+ card and willing to play in 3♦ if partner is weak

2nt = forcing 15+ HCP

 

The thing is, as rarely as I open 2♣, and I hate doing it with 2 suited hands (5-5 or better), I just want to know how many Aces and Kings you have as quickly as possible, and I don't see any benefit to switch from that.

 

If I open 2♣, I basically have game in my hand, and I want to control the auction quickly and accurately, and probably 90% of the time that I do open 2♣, I just want to know how many Aces and Kings you have.