Play or Bidding?

[The_Badger]

Bidding or Play? It goes like this.

 

I had an interesting discussion recently with an eminent bridge friend, and we both agreed (quite obviously) that an advanced player needs to improve bidding and play to reach expert standard.

 

And for an intermediate player to reach advanced player standard the same ground rules applies.

 

However, if you were only allowed bidding or play, what one would be more useful to teach a seasoned intermediate player so that their game improved?

 

Needless to say, there were a lot of views either way, and I'd be interested in BBOers take on this. Thanks in advance.

[StevenG]

I think it's a fairly meaningless question.

 

If you improve your play, then you should, during the bidding, have a better understanding of what you need from partner to make certain contracts, because you will be able to see how to play the contract better. So, improving your play should automatically improve your bidding. I'm not saying it would for a seasoned intermediate, because there's almost certainly an innate lack of ability that explains the intermediate's lack of progress in the past.

[spotlight7]

Bidding is 80% of bridge if I remember correctly.

 

 

A good contract tends to be much easier to [lay than a overbid hand.

[relknes]

Depends on the player, but you should generally try to improve the weakest part of your game.

Look at your results. If you are giving up more IMPs or MPs on hands where you were in the same contract as everyone else, work on your play. If you are giving up more IMPs or MPs on hands where you over/under bid, work on your bidding.

[The_Badger]

I think it's a fairly meaningless question.

 

 

Yes, I agree to some extent. But it was surprising how many 'avenues' - some say 'arguments' - we explored over the course of a couple of pints of beer. That's why I'm interested in BBOers views.

[el mister]

Think it's very person dependent, like relknes says above. Personally my cardplay is the limiting factor and it's not close, miles behind my bidding. OTOH the strongest local club night to me is usually won by a pair of acol vets who bid like the process causes them physical pain, but have flawless textbook cardplay. MPs does punish weak cardplay in general, and does not commensurately reward expert bidding, ISTM, so maybe you could generalise that improved cardplay is more valuable in this form of the game.

 

As an aside the BBO rebate is a cruel game at the minute, as far as card play goes - seems to have gotten harder with some proper players participating. Any mistake playing a suit combination etc. and you're booked for a bad score, whereas the normal robot games you've got a bit more breathing space. Finding it excellent, if humbling, cardplay practice.

[TylerE]

Bidding is 80% of bridge if I remember correctly.

 

At the world championship level, perhaps.

 

At the club/local tourney I'd flip that... it's all about eeking out those overtricks in the obvious 3N/4M contracts.

[eagles123]

I seem to remember a very long thread on this topic a few years ago god knows how to find it though

[gszes]

A PARTNERSHIP would be best working on BIDDING. As a solo player working on PLAY (which I assume includes defense) will make you a player more accessible to more other players.

[nige1]

For both Bidding and Play, there are continuous scales from expert to random. Hence which is more important depends on what you choose as the intermediate-advanced interval, on each scale . Also, at MP and BAM scoring, play seems more important than at IMP scoring.

 

Mutatis mutandis, however, bidding is more important than play, IMO. A good player can sometimes rescue an unlikely contract but, often, the difference between a good score and a poor score is reaching a sensible contract. Usually, declarer can succeed, without sophisticated play techniques, such as squeezes, coups, and endplays.

 

As gszes says, defensive-play and bidding have much in common because they depend on partnership understanding and rapport.

 

StevenG's' argument seems germane: If you improve your play, then your bidding-judgement benefits: Bidding is mental Play.

 

(Of course, you can also argue the converse: Understanding the auction can help you to visualise the distribution. And so improve your play).

 

Trivially -- and finally, you are involved in all auctions but, a quarter of the time, in the play, your role is dummy :)

[Trick13]

I seem to remember a very long thread on this topic a few years ago god knows how to find it though

 

http://www.bridgebas...s-80-of-bridge/

[wank]

at the top levels it's the bidding that makes a difference.

 

at low levels it's all about sensible play and defence.

[The_Badger]

http://www.bridgebas...s-80-of-bridge/

 

Thank you. Something else to read on the subject.

[The_Badger]

 

Trivially -- and finally, you are involved in all auctions but, a quarter of the time, in the play, your role is dummy :)

 

I liked your analysis Nige1 (+1) but this last statement is not statistically true, in my opinion, as many auctions you're not involved in as you have hands where you pass throughout. Yes, you are part of the auction, but not a participant in the auction.

[The_Badger]

at the top levels it's the bidding that makes a difference.

 

at low levels it's all about sensible play and defence.

 

And that's the conclusion we came to at the end of the evening. So, ipso facto, to improve as a player, you need to concentrate on bidding more than play and defence.

[nige1]

I liked your analysis Nige1 (+1) but this last statement is not statistically true, in my opinion, as many auctions you're not involved in as you have hands where you pass throughout. Yes, you are part of the auction, but not a participant in the auction

It's not worth arguing about but when has that stopped us :)

 

IMO, whether to pass/bid/double/redouble is a bidding decision. On some boards, you elect to pass throughout.

 

Just as, on other boards, your involvement in the play is little more than following suit.

 

Suppose partner and opponents, are average bidders and players.

• If you are a better player but an average bidder, then your side has a playing advantage on about 3/4 of the boards.
• If you are a better bidder but an average player, then your side has a bidding advantage on all boards.

[GrahamJson]

Not really an answer to the question, more an observation. There seem to be many players on BBO, often claiming to be Expert, or even WC, who list a multitude of conventions on their profile yet whose declarer play and defence is hopeless. Many seem to think that being a good bidder means playing lots of conventions whereas it is much more about hand evaluation and general approach.

 

If I were forced to answer the given question I would say that, at least as far as the average BBO player that I see, they would benefit most by improving their play (assuming this also includes defence). This is because the bidding on a lot of hands should be reasonably straightforward, e.g 1NT-3NT, which even relative beginners should be able to achieve. However many seem incapable of playing even simple hands, especially if the correct line does not involve drawing trumps as soon as you possibly can. I've noticed on several occasions that, when playing with an unknown partner, they often leave the table at trick two or three if, as declarer, I play anything other than a trump as soon as I get in. Presumably thinking that I don't know what I am doing.

[Joe_Old]

I'd say that play is most important, because improved declarer play usually leads to improved defense. And defense is fully 50% of the game.

[Left2Right]

The real answer: Defense! There are three boats that need to rise together: defense, declarer play and bidding. Most players load up their convention cards long before they learn good defense. Defense tends to be the most neglected third of the game for players below the Advanced level.

 

My game took an order of magnitude leap (in the 1970's) after I devoured Eddie Kantar's book.

 

 

It has certainly stood the test of time.

[Kaitlyn S]

Not really an answer to the question, more an observation. There seem to be many players on BBO, often claiming to be Expert, or even WC, who list a multitude of conventions on their profile yet whose declarer play and defence is hopeless. Many seem to think that being a good bidder means playing lots of conventions whereas it is much more about hand evaluation and general approach.

But TBH their bidding isn't that wonderful either. Plus, they are quick to criticize when you assume that one of them knows what they are doing and make the correct technical bid that he doesn't understand.

[GrahamJson]

But TBH their bidding isn't that wonderful either. Plus, they are quick to criticize when you assume that one of them knows what they are doing and make the correct technical bid that he doesn't understand.

Agree completely. Luckily for some, poor bidders often cancel each other out, for example when one overbids and the other underbids. This happens particularly after a take out double.

 

My point is that in lots of cases poor bidders can stil get to the right contract if the hands are straightforward. However many struggle to make even the easiest of contracts. But then, perhaps I have been kibbing the wrong "experts".

[RedSpawn]

The real answer: Defense! There are three boats that need to rise together: defense, declarer play and bidding. Most players load up their convention cards long before they learn good defense. Defense tends to be the most neglected third of the game for players below the Advanced level.

 

My game took an order of magnitude leap (in the 1970's) after I devoured Eddie Kantar's book.

 

 

It has certainly stood the test of time.

Agreed.

 

It's a disservice to lump declarer play and defensive play into the same bucket. The brain power and choreography required for declarer play and defense are different. Declarer play is essentially a one-mind/man band; your partner can get drinks while you perform your solo. Defensive play, however, requires signal communication with your partner and putting two brains together to upset the contract. You must dance with your partner across the finish line for optimal results.

 

If you have top-notch defense and top-notch bidding and intermediate declarer play, you will always be a dangerous force.

1. 
    
   
2. Assuming you have a solid partner and you are a top-notch bidder, you will land in the correct contract very frequently.
   
3. You will feel more confident in doubling your opponent's dubious bids.
   
4. You will defeat a lot of contracts that others won't with solid defensive skills. And
   
5. When your teams wins the auction, you probably will declare your contracts about 1/2 of the time. The caveat is you're declaring in the CORRECT contract because of top-notch, clinical bidding.
   

[RedSpawn]

Duplicate-please delete.

[miamijd]

at the top levels it's the bidding that makes a difference.

 

at low levels it's all about sensible play and defence.

 

That's generally my impression, too, but in "The Rodwell Files," Eric Rodwell says precisely the opposite: that at the top levels, it's all about play and defense. He would know better than I.

 

Cheers,

mike

[msjennifer]

It requires a very good mental ability ,physical fitness and healthy evironment if one wants to reach greater heights not only in bridge but in all individual or team games.An expert bridge player playing in an international final in bridge spends the same energy, as an expert cardiologist doing a heart surgery operation lasting 3 hours ,when playing 20 tough deals.Joe Root cannot become a Hamman even if he wishes to! And vice versa of course.It is indeed very difficult to progress from an advanced to expert level let alone world class as the other factors like social obligations etc .need to be fulfilled also.(more particularly for the ladies).Taking Bridge ,in isolation,bidding,gadgets and conventions,defence ,playout and all the strategies to be used to suit the type of contest are equally important as also the temperament.P.S.please do not consider this as a lecture.