ACOL problem

[nekthen]

You are playing ACOL. 4 card Major Weak NT

(Clearly you open 1♦ in a 5 card major system)

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saq95h9632daq52c7]133|100[/hv]

 

Spot cards may not be correct. I will post the full hand once we have some feedback

[Cyberyeti]

1♦, no issue yet, and yes I bid 2♦ over 2♣, but with the agreement that if partner was going to pass this and had a 4 card major, he'd respond 1M

[MrAce]

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/67635-what-suit-to-open-with-4-4-3-2-and-4-4-4-1-hands/

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=saq95h9632daq52c7]133|100|

You are playing ACOL. 4 card Major Weak NT

(Clearly you open 1♦ in a 5 card major system)

Spot cards may not be correct. I will post the full hand once we have some feedback[/hv]

I rank possible strategies ...

1. Open 1N. You confused ♠5 with a ♣. Tramticket's cunning ruse.
2. Pass. Compete later. Mr Ace won't approve but 4441 is good for defence.
3. Open 1♦. Rebid 2♦ over 2♣ reply. You're unlikely to play there.
4. Open 1♠. Rebid 2♥ over 2♣ reply. Treating the ♠ suit as a 5-carder.
5. Open 1♠. Rebid 2♦ over 2♣ reply. Might lose a 4-4 ♥ fit.
6. Open 1♥, Rebid 2♦ over 2♣ reply. A massive distortion with such a poor ♥ suit.

Edited to promote Tramticket's 1N to 1st choice.

Edited May 26, 2017 by nige1

[eagles123]

1d seems normal enough, it takes quite a specific hand from partner for it to go badly wrong.

[nekthen]

http://tinyurl.com/n789fna

 

So partner chose the (old?) standard 1♥ which proceeded normally enough to a very tricky 4♥

Opening 1♦ gets you presumably to the tricky 3N

Pass also gets you to 3N

 

GIB says both contracts make unless a club or a low diamond is lead and on the bidding you are probably getting a major lead

 

So thanks all. I think it is a toss up between 1♦ and pass

[Tramticket]

I rank possible strategies ...

1. Pass, hoping to compete later. Mr Ace won't approve but 4441 is a good defensive shape..
2. Open open 1♦. Rebid 2♦ over 2♣ reply. You're unlikely to play there.
3. Open 1♠. Rebid 2♥ over 2♣ reply. Treating the ♠ suit as a 5-carder.
4. Open 1♠. Rebid 2♦ over 2♣ reply. Might lose a 4-4 ♥ fit.
5. Open 1♥, Rebid 2♦ over 2♣ reply. A massive distortion with such a poor ♥ suit.

 

I'm also tempted by pass - but with two aces I opt for 1♦. I agree that this will often be of more value in defence - e.g. if opps find an eight-card fit, the suits will be be breaking 4-1.

 

I rank:

1. 
    
   
2. 1♦ - planning to bid 2♦ over a 2♣ response.
   
3. Pass
   
4. 1NT
   
5. 1♥
   

[NickRW]

So partner chose the (old?) standard 1♥ which proceeded...

 

I'm not so sure it is an "old" standard. A lot of us here prefer 1D on hands such as this, but the people who are here are not the typical club player. And many people are not going to entertain passing what is quite a reasonable 12 count either - add a random jack and I'd wager you wouldn't too.

[helene_t]

I really don't like 1♥ with this suit. Especially since you don't really have the extras to suggest 3NT after

1♥-2♣

2♦-3♥*

*assuming this is played as invitational

 

Also, modern Acol players tend to raise major suit openings with 3-card support. This isn't what you are waiting for either.

 

Of course, 1♦ could also lead to a 4-3 fit, or 4-2 on a bad day, but at least my suit is better, then.

[nekthen]

I'm not so sure it is an "old" standard. A lot of us here prefer 1D on hands such as this, but the people who are here are not the typical club player. And many people are not going to entertain passing what is quite a reasonable 12 count either - add a random jack and I'd wager you wouldn't too.

 

An extra J certainly makes it an opening bid even J♣ rates to be useful.

 

After the hand I proposed 1♦ to partner, but she had been taught to open 1♥ whenever 4-4 in the majors, and I believe beginners are still taught this by the ebu teachers

[Cyberyeti]

An extra J certainly makes it an opening bid even J♣ rates to be useful.

 

After the hand I proposed 1♦ to partner, but she had been taught to open 1♥ whenever 4-4 in the majors, and I believe beginners are still taught this by the ebu teachers

 

1♥ is a standard old style acol opener on this shape. We would be in 3N via an auction of 1♦-2♣-2♦-2♥(art ask)-2♠-3N. They prob lead a heart.

 

If I had to open 1♥ on this shape, pass would be much more in the frame

[NickRW]

After the hand I proposed 1♦ to partner, but she had been taught to open 1♥ whenever 4-4 in the majors, and I believe beginners are still taught this by the ebu teachers

 

To be exact, I think the teaching is 1H with 4=4 majors, except 4=4=1=4 shape which is opened 1C. Given the rebid policy which is taught with it, it is a reasonable strategy - except that it gets a bit yuck when the hearts are weak as here. (But nothing is perfect in all situations - those who prefer 1D [which includes me] would be less happy with our preference if the red suits were reversed)

[Nabooba]

Swedish Acol opens the suit below the singleton, so here 1S and rebids 2H over 2C. Traditional Acol opens this hand 1H.

[gordontd]

Swedish Acol opens the suit below the singleton, so here 1S and rebids 2H over 2C. Traditional Acol opens this hand 1H.

Depends how far back you go with "traditional". Originally Acol opened the suit below the singleton, so 1S. This changed about 40 years ago to become the middle suit with a black singleton - ie 1H with 4441.

[GrahamJson]

1♦, no issue yet, and yes I bid 2♦ over 2♣, but with the agreement that if partner was going to pass this and had a 4 card major, he'd respond 1M

By all means bid this way, but you are not played no Acol if you do.

 

Yes, textbooks will recommend opening 1H with this distribution but that ignores suit quality. I would open 1S. I'm not happ with this but all other calls are worse.

[Tramticket]

but you are not played no Acol if you do. (Sic)

 

This is wrong factually as well as grammatically.

 

Different Acol textbooks suggest different methods for deciding which four-card suit open in various situations. There is no single Acol method for this decision.

[Cyberyeti]

By all means bid this way, but you are not played no Acol if you do.

 

Yes, textbooks will recommend opening 1H with this distribution but that ignores suit quality. I would open 1S. I'm not happ with this but all other calls are worse.

 

Acol is not monolithic, and has changed over time. I play a modification to the normal structure that was in vogue in the 80s but less popular now where with say a 4-4 in the reds 3-2 you open 1♦ not 1♥ and rebid a wide range 1N, finding the hearts later except in very rare cases. The book "Precision bidding in Acol" is where this came from, Crowhurst had no doubt it was still Acol.

 

Opening a spade suffers the same problem as 1♥, partner will assume you had 5 even more so than in the actual auction, because 1♠-2♣-2red categorically shows 5♠, as you don't open 1♠ with any 4441.

[RD350LC]

You are playing ACOL. 4 card Major Weak NT

(Clearly you open 1♦ in a 5 card major system)

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saq95h9632daq52c7]133|100[/hv]

 

Spot cards may not be correct. I will post the full hand once we have some feedback

I do not play ACOL, but playing 4 card majors, I would open 1♠. This will save a rebid problem when p responds 2♣. I have learned that when bidding 4-4-4-1 hands, tend to bid the suit below the singleton.

[RD350LC]

You are playing ACOL. 4 card Major Weak NT

(Clearly you open 1♦ in a 5 card major system)

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saq95h9632daq52c7]133|100[/hv]

 

Spot cards may not be correct. I will post the full hand once we have some feedback

I do not play ACOL, but playing 4 card majors, I would open 1♠. This will save a rebid problem when p responds 2♣. I have learned that when bidding 4-4-4-1 hands, tend to bid the suit below the singleton.

[wanoff]

By all means bid this way, but you are not playing Acol if you do.

 

Yes, textbooks will recommend opening 1H with this distribution but that ignores suit quality. I would open 1S. I'm not happy with this but all other calls are worse.

 

Acol has moved on so you open 1♦ these days.

1♥ stinks because the 4-3 trump game will not normally play well but 1♠ may work out ok, although 1♠-2♣-2♦ guarantees 5 spades.

[Tramticket]

1♠ may work out ok, although 1♠-2♣-2♦ guarantees 5 spades.

 

It guarantees five spades AND it buries the heart suit. This option is easily the worst in my opinion.

[Nabooba]

The worst option is to open 1D and rebid 2D. Those who choose this option have not thought through the ramifications. You do not have a balanced hand - no 1NT opening or rebid, you do not raise C, s what do you have? Either a 4 card M with a hand not good enough to reverse, or 6D. Regardless, partner will overvalue the DK.

[Cyberyeti]

The worst option is to open 1D and rebid 2D. Those who choose this option have not thought through the ramifications. You do not have a balanced hand - no 1NT opening or rebid, you do not raise C, s what do you have? Either a 4 card M with a hand not good enough to reverse, or 6D. Regardless, partner will overvalue the DK.

 

You have to bid this way in Acol on AKQ, KJxx, xxxxx, x and K♦ is probably less valuable opposite that. It works well, the principle is to be happier to admit to a 5th card in a minor that you don't have, than to do so in a major. You get stiffed very occasionally when partner has a 3316/3325 minimum 2/1, but nothing is likely to work well here, you never miss a 4-4 major suit fit provided you have the agreement that you can't pass 2♦ with 4M, so you respond 1M if you were going to.

 

Bidding this way avoids playing in 4-3 major suit fits when you think you're in a 5-3 and also avoids the situation where responder decides the 5-2 fit is the place to play game and it's actually 4-2.

[simonjw]

This comes down to which lie I am prepared to tell, and for me,suggesting a 5th/6th diamond that I do not hold is better than suggesting a 5th heart/spade. I do not want partner to force to 3M/4M

[mr1303]

Last time I played Acol vaguely seriously, we agreed to open all hands like this 1NT. Hearing the arguments for 1D (rebidding 2D) or 1H rebidding 2D, I am convinced that 1NT is best.