Timing of cross ruffs

[uttam]

http://tinyurl.com/myesr9q

 

The above link showcases the diligence in the hand played. Would to hear your feedback.

 

22nd - May - 2017

[alok c]

Deleted -garbage.

[MrAce]

Deleted due to the quote I used is deleted.

[rhm]

The defense is very tough after the trump lead, but there is one.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[SteveMoe]

100% South - ♦A then ♦6 trick 2

[nige1]

The defense is very tough after the trump lead, but there is one.

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According to GIB, to defeat 3♦ by West, on a trump lead:

 

- South rises with ♦A and returns his small ♥

- When North wins a ♠, he returns a small ♥ [/hv]

[aawk]

The lead was correct and revealed the trump distribution and south should take the ace and return ♦. South didn't but got a second chance and should overtake the ten of ♠ and play ♦ twice and set 3♦.

[MrAce]

100% South - ♦A then ♦6 trick 2

 

 

The lead was correct and revealed the trump distribution and south should take the ace and return ♦. South didn't but got a second chance and should overtake the ten of ♠ and play ♦ twice and set 3♦.

 

If you are writing in 'expert forum' in a blame assessment tone, I expect you two at least be aware of what is going on when 4 hands are open.

You two are blaming south for something that you two can not even see when all 4 hands open. Way to go BBF!

Well I've got news for both of you;

• It is not obvious or not even a good defense to play ♦A and another diamond if declarer has different hand.
• Even with the OP hand ♦A and diamond continuation does not help defense. (read Nige1's comment) It requires to take ♦ A and switch to small ♥ from Jx.(i am pretty confident that you both would find it at the table)
• And no, south did not get a second chance. Overtaking spade and playing diamonds will not set 3♦.

[aawk]

If you are writing in 'expert forum' in a blame assessment tone, I expect you two at least be aware of what is going on when 4 hands are open.

You two are blaming south for something that you two can not even see when all 4 hands open. Way to go BBF!

Well I've got news for both of you;

• It is not obvious or not even a good defense to play ♦A and another diamond if declarer has different hand.
• Even with the OP hand ♦A and diamond continuation does not help defense. (read Nige1's comment) It requires to take ♦ A and switch to small ♥ from Jx.(i am pretty confident that you both would find it at the table)
• And no, south did not get a second chance. Overtaking spade and playing diamonds will not set 3♦.

 

 

I don't get why my comment was blame assessment but if it makes you happy to blame my comment go right ahead.

 

A trump lead against a doubled part score is recommended and if the trumps are 4441 distributed drawing trump as defence is obvious the best action whatever holdings your partner or opponents got.

 

And overtaking the ten of ♠ followed by A of ♦ and J of ♦ still sets 3♦.

[johnu]

A trump lead against a doubled part score is recommended and if the trumps are 4441 distributed drawing trump as defence is obvious the best action whatever holdings your partner or opponents got.

 

"drawing trump as defence is obvious the best action whatever holdings your partner or opponents got."

 

It could be the best action but every single time?

 

And overtaking the ten of ♠ followed by A of ♦ and J of ♦ still sets 3♦.

 

Are you sure about that? Did you notice the lack of spade spots?

[bid_em_up]

 

And overtaking the ten of ♠ followed by A of ♦ and J of ♦ still sets 3♦.

 

Learn to use GIB. 3d can still be made on your suggested defense.

[SteveMoe]

If you are writing in 'expert forum' in a blame assessment tone, I expect you two at least be aware of what is going on when 4 hands are open.

You two are blaming south for something that you two can not even see when all 4 hands open. Way to go BBF!

Well I've got news for both of you;

• It is not obvious or not even a good defense to play ♦A and another diamond if declarer has different hand.
• Even with the OP hand ♦A and diamond continuation does not help defense. (read Nige1's comment) It requires to take ♦ A and switch to small ♥ from Jx.(i am pretty confident that you both would find it at the table)
• And no, south did not get a second chance. Overtaking spade and playing diamonds will not set 3♦.

 

No doubt it's much easier to lambaste posters when you depend on double dummy analysis for a specific 52 card layout. Your criticism misses the point. Why don't you consider only South and East hands and justify why a shift to a low ♥ is the odds on play knowing only those cards? Yeah, I thought so. You are resulting and you don't even know it.

 

Thanks to rhm and Nige1 for their collaborative responses.

 

While playing 3 rounds of ♦ from the South hand doesn't work here, it seems much better than trying to take 2 trump tricks by ducking. The major suit spots are unknown at the time South has to choose what to do.

[johnu]

While playing 3 rounds of ♦ from the South hand doesn't work here,

 

So, why does South get 100% of the blame if that defense doesn't work?

[nige1]

At double-dummy, GIB demonstrates that rhm's ♥ switch is right. Nevertheless, I agree with SteveMoe, that from South's point of view the most promising defence might be to persist with ♦s.

[MrAce]

No doubt it's much easier to lambaste posters when you depend on double dummy analysis for a specific 52 card layout. Your criticism misses the point.

 

Steve, when you find yourself in a ditch, stop digging it. From your replies to declarer play and defense hands it does not require a rocket scientist to notice that it is not your strongest part of your game, which is fine and I do not really care much. But when you start commenting in expert forum and blame a player, not only blame but assign unfairly 100% of the blame, in a hand that you can not even see the winning defense 4 hands open... then sorry man... there is a limit of BS that one can remain silent about.

If you have such intolerance to the action south took and not finding the DD defense at T1 when he can not see all 4 hands, you should not complain about others, such as myself, for criticizing your inaccurate comments despite seeing all hands and your unfair blame assignment.

 

Why don't you consider only South and East hands and justify why a shift to a low ♥ is the odds on play knowing only those cards? Yeah, I thought so.

 

LOL! I never said south should play small ♥ at T2! I never defended this idea. All I said was "it requires to play ♦A and then switch to small ♥ at T2 to defeat 3♦" So even seeing 52 cards, I did not suggest or imply that this defend should be found. Could someone else find it? Perhaps, but not me. Not without seeing all 4 hands.

 

You are resulting and you don't even know it.

 

It is hilarious when someone reads the topic title which says "Timing of cross ruffs" and then clicks the GIB button and see only card that defeats the 3♦ is if south plays the ♦A at T1 and then comments inaccurately " %100 South, ♦A and then ♦6" ends up calling others "resulting". This is exactly why i told you to stop digging because writing something stupid is something, getting emotional about it and trying to defend is much worse.

 

In order for one to be resulting, one should be suggesting a line of defense or declarer play, blame/support for an action or auction and most importantly one should be saying things that leads to good result. Guess who did it? I did not do any of these things. I would not even comment if you just found south guilty for not playing the A of ♦, but 100%? Really? And I am resulting? GTFOH!

 

Thanks to rhm and Nige1 for their collaborative responses.

 

Indeed! Let's see what they said!

 

"The defense is very tough after the trump lead, but there is one." - Rainer : This comment not only did not blame south for the defense he made but also states that there is a winning defense but it is very hard to find. He specifically mentions that the defense is so hard after the trump lead!.(which is totally the opposite of everything you said in this topic) Which part of those comments, if any, have you found close to your assessing the blame 100% to south?

[MrAce]

I don't get why my comment was blame assessment but if it makes you happy to blame my comment go right ahead.

 

Fair enough. That was for Steve, it is my bad that I did not make it clear in my reply so you have a valid point.

 

And overtaking the ten of ♠ followed by A of ♦ and J of ♦ still sets 3♦.

 

Nope. Check it again and you will see.

[The_Badger]

I might not have commented on here recently, but I certainly look at the forums on a regular basis. First of all thank you uttam for posting an interesting hand, and well done for making the contract. Looking at all four hands obviously makes it easier to analyse. I have a suggestion. If South ducks the trump lead playing the ♦6 at trick one, I have a feeling that it goes down. I haven't got time to analyse all variations, but if I am proved right, it's the sort of defence that the late, great Hugh Kelsey wrote about in his books.

[aawk]

Nope. Check it again and you will see.

 

After overtaking T of ♠ the defence draw 3 times trump (being 2 tricks for EW) west will make A of ♣ and trump another ♣ (2 tricks), A and K of ♥ and trump a ♥ (3 tricks).

 

To me that makes 8 tricks for the leader. So to quote you : check it and you will see.

[johnu]

I might not have commented on here recently, but I certainly look at the forums on a regular basis. First of all thank you uttam for posting an interesting hand, and well done for making the contract. Looking at all four hands obviously makes it easier to analyse. I have a suggestion. If South ducks the trump lead playing the ♦6 at trick one, I have a feeling that it goes down. I haven't got time to analyse all variations, but if I am proved right, it's the sort of defence that the late, great Hugh Kelsey wrote about in his books.

 

It changes the timing but not the double dummy result.

[johnu]

After overtaking T of ♠ the defence draw 3 times trump (being 2 tricks for EW) west will make A of ♣ and trump another ♣ (2 tricks), A and K of ♥ and trump a ♥ (3 tricks).

 

To me that makes 8 tricks for the leader.

 

If you win ♦A and lead diamonds 2 more times by crashing partner's ♠10, you will only score 1 diamond trick. Declarer will take 2 spades with a spade finesse, ♥AK, ♣A, 3 diamonds, and a club ruff for 9 tricks.

[MrAce]

After overtaking T of ♠ the defence draw 3 times trump (being 2 tricks for EW) west will make A of ♣ and trump another ♣ (2 tricks), A and K of ♥ and trump a ♥ (3 tricks).

 

To me that makes 8 tricks for the leader. So to quote you : check it and you will see.

 

I thought it would be insulting to count his tricks for someone else in an expert forum and mentioning what he said is wrong would be enough and assumed wrongly that you could see. I will not continue on debating in expert forum with someone who can not count the tricks. Let alone counting the tricks who can not count it when 4 hands are open. Forget about not being able to count despite seeing 4 hands, who can not even understand AFTER someone else warns him and shows him. That makes 3 strikes in a row. You are in the wrong forum. Sorry!

 

If you win ♦A and lead diamonds 2 more times by crashing partner's ♠10, you will only score 1 diamond trick. Declarer will take 2 spades with a spade finesse, ♥AK, ♣A, 3 diamonds, and a club ruff for 9 tricks.

[bid_em_up]

Nope. Check it again and you will see.

 

After overtaking T of ♠ the defence draw 3 times trump (being 2 tricks for EW) west will make A of ♣ and trump another ♣ (2 tricks), A and K of ♥ and trump a ♥ (3 tricks).

 

To me that makes 8 tricks for the leader. So to quote you : check it and you will see.

 

Aye yai yai.

 

Technically, that's 7 tricks for declarer. But who's counting? You are missing the fact that he can score two spades in addition to these for a total of nine.

 

Do you know how to use the movie and select play to control the play of all four hands? Try it and see for yourself.

 

Declarer will take two high diamonds, 2 spades (he ducks a 2nd spade to the stiff ace & later takes a spade finesse), AK of hearts, the Ace of clubs, and a ruff in each hand.

 

That's nine.

[The_Badger]

The more I look at this hand, the more it makes me smile :) I have now had time to play through quite a few variations on GIB, including one where South is thrown in with the last trump to facilitate a stepping stone to declarer's winning ♠.

 

But yes, taking the ♦A and switching to a small ♥ (nige1 and rhm) is the winning defence. I, like others, were mesmerised by the usually correct defence of using one trump of ours to cancel out two ruffs for declarer.

 

A good post, uttam. Thank you. (And welcome to the forum.)