Opps open 4H

[Nabooba]

Some very odd comments in this thread. Firstly, Nethken, the x is for takeout. Most experts play X through 4S as takeout. 4S is obvious.

Secondly, I would never pull the x of 4S. Who says C is better.

Thirdly I don't like the x opposite a passed hand. Simply pass.

[eagles123]

Agree with diana_eva although on a good day, North might pass South's double.

South hand posted to BridgeWinners as a Bidding Poll

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for posting this poll, I have to say I'm surprised at the result - maybe I had an unconcious bias in my original answer.

[Winstonm]

All the bids look just fine to me.

 

There's a reason why the top pros preempt more and higher than the average player. Preempts cause BIG problems, even for world champion class players. This is one of those deals.

 

It's easy to criticize Xs like this when they don't work. The problem is that pass is even riskier. If you are conservative over preempts and pass hands like this, you will get taken the cleaners day in and day out by high-level openings.

 

It's also easy to criticize North's bid given all the hands, but I think he has a clear 4S call. You can't pass with a stiff h and let the opponents play at the 4-level with a presumed 11 card fit. Let's give South a more typical double by giving him West's Queen of spades and King of diamonds in exchange for a low heart and the Ace of diamonds. Now East makes 4HX easily.

 

What is North supposed to do after the X? 4S was normal; if he's fixed, he's fixed.

 

And what is South supposed to do? 5 of a minor could be much worse.

 

Sometimes @#$% happens. You have to make the bids most likely to land you on your feet, and I think both N and S did.

 

 

Cheers,

Mike

 

This sounds like an argument that could be made favoring more penalty-orientated doubles of preemptive bids. As the bridge clock spins, styles come and go. Perhaps it is spinning toward a time when this convention may make a return.

[Nabooba]

Make a comeback? Hardly! Opener opens 4H. You hold Axxx void AKxxx KJxx

What will you do? Double for penalties? Do you think you can beat 4H? Maybe, maybe not. This could be a double game swing. Even worse is the so called "optional double", often called the "pass the blame double."

[Winstonm]

Make a comeback? Hardly! Opener opens 4H. You hold Axxx void AKxxx KJxx

What will you do? Double for penalties? Do you think you can beat 4H? Maybe, maybe not. This could be a double game swing. Even worse is the so called "optional double", often called the "pass the blame double."

 

With that hand you would bid 4S, takeout. No problem. The problem hand you probably meant to use was the natural 4S overcall hand. That is a problem. Fishbein is like any other convention - great when you hold the perfect hand for it - not so useful when you don't.

[Nabooba]

With that hand you would bid 4S, takeout. No problem. The problem hand you probably meant to use was the natural 4S overcall hand. That is a problem. Fishbein is like any other convention - great when you hold the perfect hand for it - not so useful when you don't.

 

"With that hand you would bid 4S, takeout."

No I would not and neither would any good player.

[cherdano]

Yes, maybe I should have posted it as a one-hand problem. I chose to present the whole deal because my partner (who is a very good player) thought that my initial double was ok but that I should have bid 5♣ after 4♠ was doubled.

IMO the only crazy thing that happened at the table is this suggestion. Your partner may be a good player; but some good players aren't good at thinking about a bidding problem from partner's perspective in the post mortem.

[Winstonm]

"With that hand you would bid 4S, takeout."

No I would not and neither would any good player.

 

Yes, you would, playing Fishbein.

 

.... the original Fishbein convention, the concept of the unique Takeout Double is for the player immediately following the Preemptive opening to bid the cheapest, next available suit. An immediate Double is a Penalty Double.

 

Playing Fishbein (which I don't endorse), you would bid 4S over a 4H opening as a takeout - perfect hand would be 4144.

 

I'm sorry you want to argue about this unrelated point. The issue is that bridge changes. In its earliest days, opening bids were quite loose and made with hands more like today's hands - but consstructive bidding slowly replaced that idea. Later on, too rigid of opening bids created an opening for preemptive bids to mess with opponents' construction. It wasn't until the 60s that Howard Schenken introduced weak 2-bids in the Schenken Club system, a result of losses to the Blue Team's better methods in international play.

 

Anyway, all I can tell you is that with the turn of the clock back towards weaker and more destructive preempts, it is only natural that pressure will build to use punishing doubles more frequently.

[P_Marlowe]

happens, they got you.