Opps open 4H

[helene_t]

matchpoints.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sa87h64daqtcaj985&w=sqjt3hq3dk8632ck2&n=sk952h7dj954cq763&e=s64hakjt9852d7ct4&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=pp4hdp4sppdppp]399|300[/hv]

[diana_eva]

Unlucky, but I'd bid the same way. X and 4S seem perfectly normal to me.

[eagles123]

i have some symapthy with it but I think south's double without a 4th spade and opposite a passed hand at the 4 level is just too much. If it was 1h or even 2h of course double but 4h it seems too high to me!

[Cyberyeti]

Does anybody respect the double and remove ? I'd be tempted.

[ggwhiz]

Given that if you switch the North and West hands 4♠ still goes down the initial double is too much and as south I would not like my chances if my passed hand partner had pulled to 5m (even worse diamonds) instead.

 

That's hindsight though and something I have been guilty of from time to time.

[RedSpawn]

i have some symapthy with it but I think south's double without a 4th spade and opposite a passed hand at the 4 level is just too much. If it was 1h or even 2h of course double but 4h it seems too high to me!

 

Agreed.

 

You pay the cost to be the boss. That double is out of order. 4♥X means partner has to bid his best suit and South's hand can't really support a 4 card♠ suit.

 

There is no way to know that South's hand is better suited for the minors with the bidding structure we see here. 4♠ is the logical cheapest bid to describe North's hand.

[wank]

south can't double with this. it's hardly a shock that you convert +50 to minus whatever.

[Winstonm]

Double is simply not warranted with the South hand; there is no good reason to believe 4H won't make, and no good reason to believe our side is missing a game. Pass is pretty simple once you look at the hand that way.

[RedSpawn]

Double is simply not warranted with the South hand; there is no good reason to believe 4H won't make, and no good reason to believe our side is missing a game. Pass is pretty simple once you look at the hand that way.

 

But for South to call PASS is oh so hard in today's modern bridge environment. That is a sign of weakness when South allows the opponents to jam up his team's contract without punishing them for interference.

 

:)

 

Of course, PASS it is the correct call, but I had to throw that in there.

[nige1]

Unlucky, but I'd bid the same way. X and 4S seem perfectly normal to me.

Agree with diana_eva although on a good day, North might pass South's double.

South hand posted to BridgeWinners as a Bidding Poll

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[silvr bull]

I can't honestly answer the poll questions because I have seen all the hands and it colors my judgement. If I was given only the South hand and the P P 4H bids, I would mentally flip a coin to decide between pass or double. My guess is that if only the South hand was presented here, there would be more votes for double than the 4 now shown. Similarly, if given only the North hand and asked what to do after 4H on my left and double by partner, I would not have an easy decision between pass or 4S. My view is that the pass or double and the pass or 4S decisions are very close in expected value.

[rmnka447]

South's hand is a tough one to bid. Like others, I think the lack of a 4th ♠ tips the balance towards pass rather than double.

 

If you double, North is almost always going to bid 4 ♠ with a 4 card suit and you're in a pickle as to what to do. With RHO preempting, it less likely that ♠ will break evenly enough for 4 ♠ to play well on a 7 card fit.

 

Pass also gives you side an additional option. Partner just might find a reopening 4 ♠ call which would settle what the strain should be.

[Jinksy]

IIRC this is one of the hand types Phil King's investigated in extreme detail, and concluded that to X you should have an upper-end strong NT or better (not a good description of this hand, IMO), or a 4th spade.

[Nabooba]

South does not have a double.

[helene_t]

I can't honestly answer the poll questions because I have seen all the hands and it colors my judgement.

Yes, maybe I should have posted it as a one-hand problem. I chose to present the whole deal because my partner (who is a very good player) thought that my initial double was ok but that I should have bid 5♣ after 4♠ was doubled.

 

I found that surprising - I thought that my initial double was the most questionable call.

 

Thanks to Nige1 for posting it as a 1-hand problem on BridgeWinners. Apparently, most chose to double in that setting although there have not been so many hi-profile players voting so far (Kieran Dyke and John Diamond dbl, while Joshua Donn passes).

[nekthen]

At the 4 level a double cannot be 100% takeout and I hold North responsible for taking out the double. 4♥ -1 is going to happen way more often than 4♠ making. You expect the doubler to have at least 3 defensive tricks and your hand will provide 1 or 2.

 

If you think that partner can only double when 4♠ is a make opposite your hand then you are in for a long wait.

 

I think the other key here is the scoring method. At matchpoints converting +50 to +100 is huge At IMPS South should pass like a shot

[silvr bull]

my partner (who is a very good player) thought that my initial double was ok but that I should have bid 5♣ after 4♠ was doubled.

 

I found that surprising - I thought that my initial double was the most questionable call.

A comment about pulling 4SX to 5C surprises me too. Would he have made the same comment if his hand was J9xxxx x J9xx Kx? I think his decision to pass 4HX or correct to 4S is at least as difficult as the initial double or pass decision.

[msjennifer]

We play optional double at game level opening preempt.With a passed partner I , as South,would double at match points but pass at IMP scoring.It is not very incorrect for North if he makes a rather unfortunate decision to bid 4S rather than a pass.It is a borderline decision.

[GrahamJson]

The double is close and I wouldn't criticise anyone who passed, although I think I would be a doubler. The 4S bid is however very questionable. You don't expect more than 8 trumps between N and S with maybe 10 between E and W, so if 4S is making 4H is probably two off and if 4H is making 4S is certainly also at least two off. As the bidding went there is no way S should be bidding further except perhaps trying 4NT when west's double comes round to him, asking north to try a minor suit. That of course might not improve matters but may be worth the risk.

[RD350LC]

Unlucky, but I'd bid the same way. X and 4S seem perfectly normal to me.

I tend to agree. Hindsight is always 20/20.

[gthcd]

In my partnerships, double of a 4♥ (or a 4♠) preempt is for penalties. It's in the system notes.

 

Little discussed though is :

1. after 4♥ X is partner allowed to remove the X and bid 4♠ ?

2. what does he need to do that ?

 

At this point I think the answers might be 1. Yes, 2. At least 5 spades, shortage in hearts, values (with some prospects of slam ?)

[SteveMoe]

Playing aggressive doubles, South should Double. Above 3♥, doubles are more cards than a clear commitment to the other major (at least 3 cards in all unbids and sound values).

 

With 6 HCP and 4 card ♠ opposite partner's double might or might not make game. North should reason that if partner has sound values outside ♥, EW are in trouble. North should also reason that partner could be under pressure with values and no clear direction. Taking 5 or 6 tricks on defense might be easier than 10 on offense. North could PASS. I believe North's decision is close to a coin flip. What tips it to pass and defend for me is that both NS have shortness in the SAME suit (North knows this, not South). That suggests declaring will be more difficult than defending.

[aawk]

If a bidding leads to a wrong contract only look for the first bid which was wrong all other bids which followed at no relevant any more.

 

So was the double on 4h correct. If yes then you will end up in 4♠ doubled if no then you will set 4♥.

 

The only question remains what the arguments are to double 4h.

 

Is it a take out double because the will make 4♥, is it a info double to get to game or is it to show you got strong hand and let partner decide to try to set 4♥ or play any other contract ?

 

For a take out double the hand should as least hold 4-4-3 in the suits outside ♥ so can't be the right action.

 

For a info double what does partner needs for 4s to be the right contract keeping in mind he/she already passed. If you play 2♠ as weak with a 6 card partners holdings in ♠ could be enough. If 2♠ could be weak with a 5(+) card 4♠ is not likely the best contract.

 

For a double showing strength the question is if partners should bid 4♠ or is pass to set 4♥ the better option.

 

I would pass 4♥ because the hand is not suited for (any sort of) double in the given bid situation.

[mlbridge]

Definitely will not double if it is for takeout. Odds of spades breaking are slim.

 

If we play double of 4h is for penalty, then it depends on when in the round. If early in the round, I probably just pass. Hate to have someone make 4Hx on me early in the round. If late in the round and I need a top board, then I double and hope to find pard with a K that will hold up. I will lead out my aces. If I need an average board, I will just pass.

 

If imps, just pass.

[miamijd]

All the bids look just fine to me.

 

There's a reason why the top pros preempt more and higher than the average player. Preempts cause BIG problems, even for world champion class players. This is one of those deals.

 

It's easy to criticize Xs like this when they don't work. The problem is that pass is even riskier. If you are conservative over preempts and pass hands like this, you will get taken the cleaners day in and day out by high-level openings.

 

It's also easy to criticize North's bid given all the hands, but I think he has a clear 4S call. You can't pass with a stiff h and let the opponents play at the 4-level with a presumed 11 card fit. Let's give South a more typical double by giving him West's Queen of spades and King of diamonds in exchange for a low heart and the Ace of diamonds. Now East makes 4HX easily.

 

What is North supposed to do after the X? 4S was normal; if he's fixed, he's fixed.

 

And what is South supposed to do? 5 of a minor could be much worse.

 

Sometimes @#$% happens. You have to make the bids most likely to land you on your feet, and I think both N and S did.

 

 

Cheers,

Mike