Is opener's jump shift forcing?

[silvr bull]

You are playing in a BBO matchpoints tournament with a good partner and you have these agreements:

 

(1) Open 12-14 NT (so the 1D open cannot be a weak balanced hand);

 

(2) After an overcall, bid a 4 card 1M if your hand is good enough to bid (so the negative double of 1H denies a biddable 4 card S suit).

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sj75h542dk73ck965&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=p1d1hdp3cp]133|200[/hv]

 

You have not discussed the minimum strength needed for a negative double, or if opener's jump shift is forcing. What are your choices in the two poll questions?

[aguahombre]

The question, IMO, should not be "What is...?" but rather what we choose.

 

In an uncontested auction, a Jump shift rebid by opener really should be forcing to game after Responder makes a simple response. However, we choose to change that on auctions where Partner has made a negative Double. The jump shift is a presumptive jump-raise by our style.

 

Here, however, my minimum values are huge. I expect we have ten real tricks in the Minors, and if Partner thinks she has an eleventh there won't be 3 major suit losers. Hence, a picturesque 4c

[MrAce]

First of all if you are going to make a poll, please do not fill the options with your own interpretations of the calls. Let the people decide an option and let them decide why they chose it. I have clear choice in both polls but I can not choose any of them due to your attached interpretations of these options.

In your first question my answer is NO. But this is not because I want to trap pass and this is not because I do not have values to double. I just do not have 4 card spade. I use neg double over 1H without 4 card spades but not when I have such minimum values and such a balanced hand.

 

About your second question - Aguaman explained very well. to me it is non forcing but better hand than a jump to 2♠. since spades are responder suit. Like most people I play that double NOT promising clubs next to spades. If you double promised both black suits, then 3♣ can even be lighter.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

in general I would say, that you should strengthen your agreement,

so that X denies 4 spades.

You can discuss the merrits of this agreement, but I think going

the complete road is better, than saying X denies biddable spades,

leaving the option, that you still may need to check for a 44 fit

in spades.

 

If X denies 4 spades, I would make the X, but this is a judgement

call, and 3C is NF.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[aguahombre]

Actually, when (as OP) the neg double of 1♥ denies 4 spades, there are very few distributions which don't have 4 clubs. So, we are fine with considering Opener's club rebids as 'raises'. 2♠, a jump shift in a suit Responder has denied, would indeed be game forcing.

 

Just the opposite applies if the Neg double showed 4 Spades. Then 2♠ would just be a four-card raise of Responder's virtual 1♠ response -- but a jump shift to 3♣ would be game-forcing, since Responder doesn't necessarily have clubs.

 

I believe item 2 of the OP has been overlooked. The poster's Double does deny Spades. It was worded strangely, IMO. Responder should not be distinguishing between "biddable" spades and some other kind of 4 spades. He either has spades or he doesn't.

[silvr bull]

I believe item 2 of the OP has been overlooked. The poster's Double does deny Spades. It was worded strangely, IMO. Responder should not be distinguishing between "biddable" spades and some other kind of 4 spades. He either has spades or he doesn't.

Good comment, but I see a third option. After 1m (1H), our X shows values in the minors and denies a "biddable" 4 card S suit. With a hand like xxxx xxx KJx KQx, I prefer a double to show the minor suit high cards instead of 1S which gives opener a misdirected view of the hand. Imagine his surprise if I bid 1S with xxxx and he bids NT with a stiff SQ, or decides to play a 4=3 S fit with something like AQx X AQxxx Axxx. If opener has enough strength and a S suit, he can bid 1S now or Ss later. If my original hand was xxxx xxx Kxx KJx and X denied 4 Ss, I would pass 1H and hope I can bid 1S after opener reopens with X.

[aguahombre]

A side note: The main reason we use the Neg Double to deny Spades after a 1♥ overcall is because if we pass with responding values, however slight they might be, we can never unring that bell and show those values -- exception, a true trap pass.

 

So, this hand is just fine for a neg Double; partner is on the same page with this; and it all leads back to 3♣ not being forcing.

[MrAce]

Actually, when (as OP) the neg double of 1♥ denies 4 spades, there are very few distributions which don't have 4 clubs. So, we are fine with considering Opener's club rebids as 'raises'. 2♠, a jump shift in a suit Responder has denied, would indeed be game forcing.

 

Just the opposite applies if the Neg double showed 4 Spades. Then 2♠ would just be a four-card raise of Responder's virtual 1♠ response -- but a jump shift to 3♣ would be game-forcing, since Responder doesn't necessarily have clubs.

 

I believe item 2 of the OP has been overlooked. The poster's Double does deny Spades. It was worded strangely, IMO. Responder should not be distinguishing between "biddable" spades and some other kind of 4 spades. He either has spades or he doesn't.

 

When I read this I recognized that X denied 4 card spades, so disregard my previous post.

[ggwhiz]

Does anyone remember the ubiquitous cue bid from the old master solvers club?

 

Particularly here where responder has shown no particular direction with the double, 2♥ by opener must say we are going to game but (often) neither one of us has a clue as to where yet.

 

Therefore 3♣ casts a rosy glow on the auction but is not forcing.

[aguahombre]

Does anyone remember the ubiquitous cue bid from the old master solvers club?

 

Particularly here where responder has shown no particular direction with the double, 2♥ by opener must say we are going to game but (often) neither one of us has a clue as to where yet.

 

Therefore 3♣ casts a rosy glow on the auction but is not forcing.

Actually responder has shown some direction (in a negative-inference way) She has one of the following:

1) A nt response without a heart stop

2) A 1♥ response without a heart stop!!

3) Clubs but unable to respond 2♣.

4) All of the above.

5) 2) and 3) only.

 

The death hand for Opener would be some 3-3-4-3 mountain 18+ without a heart stop. A ubiquitous cue will not unveil a heart stop in Partner's hand. Maybe the answer is to reserve the cuebid for G.F. with long Diamonds or G.F. with Diamonds and Clubs -- and conveniently get sick, leaving the table, if we have the 3-3-x-x balanced hand with a lot of points and no heart stop.

[sfi]

What are your choices in the two poll questions?

 

Happy with the double. I really want a 3H bid on the second round of the auction, but it seems to be missing from the bidding box.

[P_Marlowe]

Good comment, but I see a third option. After 1m (1H), our X shows values in the minors and denies a "biddable" 4 card S suit. With a hand like xxxx xxx KJx KQx, I prefer a double to show the minor suit high cards instead of 1S which gives opener a misdirected view of the hand. Imagine his surprise if I bid 1S with xxxx and he bids NT with a stiff SQ, or decides to play a 4=3 S fit with something like AQx X AQxxx Axxx. If opener has enough strength and a S suit, he can bid 1S now or Ss later. If my original hand was xxxx xxx Kxx KJx and X denied 4 Ss, I would pass 1H and hope I can bid 1S after opener reopens with X.

Ok, but what do you do, if you strength the hand, e.g. by adding an Ace,

still without a heart stopper and the same meager spades?

What you do with the given 7HCP hand / 4333 distribution is a matter of

taste, know the future, and you know what works best.

I usually try to minimize the amout of judgement required for taking my

first bid in a common auction, and 1m (1H) ??? is common.

 

Finally, since you play weak NT, if partner responds 1NT to your bid,

he should show the strong NT, so your raised issues of the singleton Q is a

bit ...

[mr1303]

What about a preference to 3D? This will allow us to keep the auction alive without going past 3NT (4C sounds forcing to me, which is an overbid.