Bidding on misfitting hands

[johnu]

Nice switch out, johnu, but errrr no.

 

??? My original post was about the total nonsense of your comment about South's 2♥ opening and your entire 2♣ auction. Please comment about why you think South does not have an opening bid. Then comment why you think that you can stop in 3NT after opening 2♣. Unless you are playing something like the German Doctors system, you can't.

[RedSpawn]

??? My original post was about the total nonsense of your comment about South's 2♥ opening and your entire 2♣ auction. Please comment about why you think South does not have an opening bid. Then comment why you think that you can stop in 3NT after opening 2♣. Unless you are playing something like the German Doctors system, you can't.

 

The reason I am assuming other people pass to East is because, in the middle of the post chain, the original poster said for the sake of discussion, assume all parties pass to East. That is why South would not open 2 ♥. So the hole you are looking for in my absurd analysis does not reside with the fact that South could open 2♥.

 

Of course, you would have to read the entire string to see that before you went into the dismissive "2 ♣ ....that's nonsense" mode. . . lol.

 

The 2♣ open is not nonsense. South might preempt but the person asking says South passes. You can disagree, but East's hand qualifies for a majestic 2 clubs open despite the fact that it goes against every fiber of your bridge sensibilities.

[Jinksy]

Anyone remember this hand?

 

[hv=pc=n&w=s9ht98765432dq3c9&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=p]133|200[/hv]

 

It's got 7 losers - so we should open it 1♥. Although on K&R, it scores 7.8, so I guess it's a toss-up between 1♥ or 2.

[RedSpawn]

Anyone remember this hand?

 

[hv=pc=n&w=s9ht98765432dq3c9&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=p]133|200[/hv]

 

It's got 7 losers - so we should open it 1♥. Although on K&R, it scores 7.8, so I guess it's a toss-up between 1♥ or 2.

 

There is a fallacy of comparison here.

 

A hand with Zero quick tricks does not qualify for a One of anything open. So it doesn't qualify for a 1 heart open. Based on quality of the heart suit, it should not be opened 4♥ either as such a tactic effectively places a gag order on your partner.

 

Now, if you want to go for a 2hearts or 3 hearts open, go ahead. Not my style but I can see a valid case being made for 2♥ or 3 ♥ if you are itching to report your heart suit.

 

Now with respect to K&R, the tool is assigning 5 length points to a 9 card suit, which is more than reasonable. It is also giving full value to the queen of diamond trapped in the doubleton. I don't agree with the 2 point queen. That puts us at 7 points, so I am not seeing the problem with K&R adding length points for a 9 card suit here.

 

There is a minimum opening requirement that hands must first meet before we apply an LTC formula to it. They typically have at least 13 points or at least 1.5 - 2.0 quick tricks to them.

 

The hand with 18 HCP and at most 4 losers satisfies both the quick trick and minimum HCP requirement. 1098765432♥ has absolutely no quick tricks and is no where near 13 total points, so you don't use the LTC tool since this hand does not even meet the minimum opening requirements.

[johnu]

As such he has a royal hand and must sound the trumpets. roll out the carpet, and open up 2 ♣ to put his partner on official notice that he has a potential barn burner that warrants an game ending contract.

 

West has 10 points and a well defined club suit....his spade suit is not strong enough for a mention yet since it is not headed by KJXX. West must respond 3♣and east bids 3nt final.

 

I'm still waiting for a rational for this bidding, especially the "3nt final". Does that mean East flashes the 3NT bidding card and then immediately scoops up the bidding cards and starts to put them back in the bidding box? Or emphatically places the 3NT card on the table, crosses his arms, and glares at partner, just daring him to bid again?

[spotlight7]

The K & R site tends to give a numberic value that does not always meet reasonable bridge standards.

 

 

The responding hand with 5S and 6C is rated 13.45 so I cannot understand stopping below slam after 2C-3C

 

 

2C-3C-3NT - pass is result bridge almost in its ultimate form.

 

 

Partner opened 2C and I hold a K&R 13.45 hand so I pass after 2C-3C-3N?

 

 

I tried some other examples on the K&R site:

 

 

xx xx x AKxxxxxx is 15.2 Two quick tricks so open 1C and rebid 2Cs

 

 

x xx xx AKJxxxxx 16.5 2+ quick tricks open 1C and jump rebid 3C

 

 

x xx x AQ10xxxxx rated 15 with 1.5 quick tricks. Not quite worth a jump with 15 'this time.'

 

 

x x x AQ10xxxxxxx 16.75 with 1.5 quick tricks.

 

 

The example hand shown on the site is KQxxx QJ10x - AK10x rates 18.8 and it has 3 quick tricks.

 

 

Is it worth a jump shift after partner replies? It is a 4 loser hand.

 

 

If you find a fit, it is a very nice hand.

 

 

 

Kaplan would not even come close to opening 2C with the example hand.

 

 

The 8.5 trick hand that you mention for a 2C opening is taking a charitable view 'when holding a major suit.'

 

 

 

A Kaplan 2C opening followed by a minor suit rebid would have a likely 10+ winners.

 

 

In his KS system, 1 minor -1 something - a jump rebid of the minor 'shows a hand worth a 2C opening if the suit was a major.

 

 

1D - something - 2C* or 1C - something - 2D* is KS bidding defined as a KS 'reverse.'

 

 

A hand worth 1m - something - 3 minor rebid in standard metods uses a KS reverse to show that hand type.

 

 

 

2C-2D-3N using Kokish style bidding tends to show a strong(solid?) suit without a great HCP holding.

 

 

A hand with high hopes of running 9+ winners on the opening lead.

[sfi]

The K & R site tends to give a numberic value that does not always meet reasonable bridge standards.

 

Indeed. It is almost like the game is not entirely defined by simplistic numerical evaluation methods.

[Nabooba]

"I'm still waiting for a rational for this bidding, especially the "3nt final". "

There is none. IF East opened 2C, then surely west would not pass 3NT, after all, this or similar is a possible layout:

 

AKxx

Axxx

AKQx

x

Now where do you want to be? Passing 3NT is resulting.

[RedSpawn]

I'm still waiting for a rational for this bidding, especially the "3nt final". Does that mean East flashes the 3NT bidding card and then immediately scoops up the bidding cards and starts to put them back in the bidding box? Or emphatically places the 3NT card on the table, crosses his arms, and glares at partner, just daring him to bid again?

 

Are you going to even acknowledge that you were out of order for accusing me of not recognizing South's 2♥ preemptive bid when you failed to read the qualification from the original poster that clearly states to assume all players pass to East?

 

NOPE! You won't do that because there is a bigger principle at play here. Your ego won't even allow you to make such a concession.

 

If you are going to get snarky and suggest I am a bridge fool or shortsighted, you should first make sure you have read the entire string and have your facts right about the auction conditions.

 

You hastily threw a poisoned dart and got busted for failing to read the original poster's underlying assumptions. There is no 2♥ bid from South if everyone passes to East.

[RedSpawn]

Indeed. It is almost like the game is not entirely defined by simplistic numerical evaluation methods.

 

Couldn't agree more.

 

AQTX♦

AQTXX♦

AQTXXX♦

AQTXXXX♦

 

can't all be worth just 6 points per Milton's evaluation. Whether NT or suit contract, the hands with longer diamond suits are more valuable from a trick taking potential perspective. That is why East's hand is not just a random 18 point hand.

 

Some type of adjustment is needed to reflect the asset value of a long honor-rich suit. If you think having three extra cards beyond the basic four in diamond suit is not equivalent to having perhaps, an extra king in hand....so be it.

 

What value do you assign to the extra 3 cards in the decently established ♦ suit, 0?

 

I will not suggest that absolutely no adjustment is needed as that is patently understating my hand's asset value.

[sfi]

What value do you assign for the extra 3 cards in the decently established diamond suit, 0?

 

Yes, since you ask. They certainly improve the hand significantly, but I don't bother turning that into a number. That doesn't matter since I don't use a set number for a 2C opener. Call it 'game in hand' or thereabouts, and one where the auction will be able to proceed sensibly after 2C.

 

This hand doesn't have the fillers that screams 'open 2C' and it's a rare construction where we won't be better off on the next round after a 1D opening. If we get passed out in 1D I'm not going to be all that stressed either, since we probably aren't making game.

 

Besides, if you open 2C on this hand you are going to be lucky to stop short of slam on the actual deal. That's not going to go well.

[Cyberyeti]

Yes, since you ask. They certainly improve the hand significantly, but I don't bother turning that into a number. That doesn't matter since I don't use a set number for a 2C opener. Call it 'game in hand' or thereabouts, and one where the auction will be able to proceed sensibly after 2C.

 

This hand doesn't have the fillers that screams 'open 2C' and it's a rare construction where we won't be better off on the next round after a 1D opening. If we get passed out in 1D I'm not going to be all that stressed either, since we probably aren't making game.

 

Besides, if you open 2C on this hand you are going to be lucky to stop short of slam on the actual deal. That's not going to go well.

 

Exactly, head the diamonds with AQJ10 and I have no issues opening 2♣, possibly a bad result on this hand but you have the playing strength to back it up.

[RedSpawn]

Exactly, head the diamonds with AQJ10 and I have no issues opening 2♣, possibly a bad result on this hand but you have the playing strength to back it up.

 

You do not need 4 of 5 ♦ honors to pad a decently established 7 card suit....to be 2 clubs eligible. I agree having 4 of 5 honors is nice, but that is a bit of overkill.

 

I think we are putting a 2 clubs open on too high a pedastal especially with the modern shift of "less HCP is more" bidding of 1 of a suit bids we are trending towards even from first and second seat.

[nige1]

Partner and I picked up these hands at a club game this weekend. I was sitting W. We had a bad bidding miscommunication, but even after the game looking at the diagrams, I'm unsure how these hands should have been bid. How would you bid them?

Thanks for the comments so far. For the sake of discussion, assume it is passed around to E (it was on our hand, I didn't want to open as W). Without intervention, what would be your "ideal" sequence?

[hv=pc=n&s=s543hqjt843dkcj96&w=sqt862h2d8caqt754&n=sk97h765dj963ck83&e=sajhak9daqt7542c2&d=s&a=PPP1DP1SP2HX3CP3SP3NAPPP]399|300|We're told there are 3 passes to East. Assuming EW have relevant agreements and NS grant them an uninterrupted auction;

Although East has 4 losers, he can risk 1♦ because it's likely to be a reasonable contract, unlikely to be passed out, and West will require some cards to make game.

After West's 1♠, East reverses into 2♥ (with the understanding that such bids are never raised to game).

West rebids 3♣ showing sound values (Without South's double, 2N would have been Lebensohl).

Over 3♠, West has a choice between 3N and 4♠. On a ♥ lead, If declarer cashes ♦A, then 3N is a lucky make (4 X ♠, 2 X ♥, 2 X ♦ and 1 X ♣).[/hv]

[sfi]

I was with you for a while. I agree the auction should start:

 

1D - 1S

2H - 3C

 

There we diverge. I would continue:

 

3D - 3S

4S

 

However, nothing feels all that comfortable. West's black suit length doesn't really get shown - 3S suggests 6 of them more often than not - and East's last call is definitely not clear.

 

On the bright side, the defence (in either 3NT or 4S) isn't going to be all that obvious either. It's a messy hand that is likely to lead to lots of post mortems around the room.

[sfi]

You do not need 4 of 5 ♦ honors to pad a decently established 7 card suit....to be 2 clubs eligible. I agree having 4 of 5 honors is nice, but that is a bit of overkill.

 

I think we are putting a 2 clubs open on too high a pedastal especially with the modern shift of "less HCP is more" bidding of 1 of a suit bids we are trending towards even from first and second seat.

 

The real problem with a 2C opener is that it uses up a level of bidding with no shape description. Opponents can bid aggressively to chew up more space, and we are often stuck guessing at an uncomfortable level. This is why the trend is more towards wider one-level openings with tools to sort it out the next round when you've exchanged some information about shape.

 

It's not just about whether the hand is strong enough - it's about whether you know where you are heading. A 2C opener really should have a clear plan about how to handle the auction, and this hand just needs too much input from partner to bid sensibly. The DJ does more than just add another trick to the hand, it significantly reduces the dependence on partner to come up with a fit for you - you would now have 6 pretty certain tricks with no fit, while before you had 4-6.

 

In a similar vein, you tend to want to be a fair bit stronger to open 2C when you have a two-suited hand than when you have one suit. Otherwise you get to the four-level too quickly and all of a sudden you have questions about whether bids are suits or support-showing, whether 4NT is natural or key-card, and so on.

 

Opening at the one-level doesn't solve all of these, of course, but you're a level lower and have already shown a suit so you're likely to be better off next round.

[Cyberyeti]

You do not need 4 of 5 ♦ honors to pad a decently established 7 card suit....to be 2 clubs eligible. I agree having 4 of 5 honors is nice, but that is a bit of overkill.

 

I think we are putting a 2 clubs open on too high a pedastal especially with the modern shift of "less HCP is more" bidding of 1 of a suit bids we are trending towards even from first and second seat.

 

No you don't, but I would want that if I'm opening 2♣ 4-5 HCP shy of what most people would want.

 

I keep mine up to strength because it means I can have some other agreements I like. 2♣ consumes a lot of space, we play 2♣-positive response F4N unless a suit is known to be open to give us the space to develop, which means it needs to be kept up to strength, hence if we opened 2♣ we'd be unlikely to stop in anything that makes although could reach 5♦ which I suspect makes in practice.

 

Our auction 1♦-1♠-2N(GF unbal)-3N(there is a semi forced 3♣ here, this shows 5-5 blacks NF) then you have a choice of P/4♠/4♦ which will lead to 5♦

[RedSpawn]

As stated, the adjusted value of the hand with length points and suit quality points is 22 hcp and the LTC is no more than 4 losers so 2♣ it is for me.

 

Per BridgeGuy.com Losing Trick Evaluation Section

 

Please click this link and review Losing Trick Evaluation section that shows some partnerships play 2 clubs for 9 or 8.5+ winning tricks.

 

I play 8.5+ tricks which I admit has additional risk, but I am comfortable with such an approach. If, however, you feel 1♦ is the best descriptive bid for East's hand....have at it.

 

That's why I love the game.

 

I have asked several people about East's hand and some answered two clubs and others said 1♦. For those that answered 1♦, I asked about 2 clubs, they said, that's not their style but they have definitely seen some partnerships play an 8.5+ winning trick approach.

 

Enjoy!

[johnu]

 

Considering the source, I accept this as your explanation for the auction

 

2♣ - 3♣

3NT

[Cyberyeti]

As stated, the adjusted value of the hand with length points and suit quality points is 22 hcp and the LTC is no more than 4 losers so 2♣ it is for me.

 

Per BridgeGuy.com Losing Trick Evaluation Section

 

Please click this link and review Losing Trick Evaluation section that shows some partnerships play 2 clubs for 9 or 8.5+ winning tricks.

 

I play 8.5+ tricks which I admit has additional risk, but I am comfortable with such an approach. If, however, you feel 1♦ is the best descriptive bid for East's hand....have at it.

 

That's why I love the game.

 

I have asked several people about East's hand and some answered two clubs and others said 1♦. For those that answered 1♦, I asked about 2 clubs, they said, that's not their style but they have definitely seen some partnerships play an 8.5+ winning trick approach.

 

Enjoy!

 

You do not seem understand the simple fact that having 4 losers is not the same as having 9 winners or playing tricks. I would open this an 8 playing trick Acol 2♦ if playing one, but would consider it about 8-8.5 tricks given that partner can have quite a good hand without having an entry to his hand, so I may have to play the diamonds myself from hand.

[RedSpawn]

You do not seem understand the simple fact that having 4 losers is not the same as having 9 winners or playing tricks. I would open this an 8 playing trick Acol 2♦ if playing one, but would consider it about 8-8.5 tricks given that partner can have quite a good hand without having an entry to his hand, so I may have to play the diamonds myself from hand.

 

This is a straight cut and paste from the link in my previous post:

 

Losing Trick Evaluation:

 

The parameters for a strong, artificial 2 Clubs opening bid include the understanding that the holding contains a minimum of 4 or fewer losing tricks. If the player is not familiar with this particular evaluation method, then it would behoove the player to acquaint himself with this supplementary method for evaluating the holding.

 

Note: Some partnerships have inverted this definition to the understanding that the holding contain at least 9 winning tricks or more. Some agreements also include a reduced total of 8.5 winning tricks.

 

In contrast to the balanced to semi-balanced holding containing a definite number of high card points, whereby the rebid is No Trump, the non-balanced holding can consist of a one-suiter or two-suiter. Some partnerships have included also a three-suited holding, which is quite rare.

 

Thus, the amount of high card points becomes irrelevant if the holding consists of four or fewer losing tricks (9 winning tricks). It is the shape and quality of the holding which decides whether a holding should be opened with a strong, artificial 2 Clubs.

 

Please click the link below:

 

http://www.bridgeguys.com/Conventions/2_clubs_opening_bid.html

 

I do not agree with an 8 playing trick hand analysis; however, I will accept 8.5 and I think "spotlight7" referred to East's hand as an 8.5 winning trick hand, which I can agree with.

 

This hand is receiving a lot of downgrades. Can more people on BBO downgrade hands containing dubious honors trapped in doubletons and singletons when performing their initial hand counts or is that a bit "over the top"?

[RedSpawn]

The basic rule with misfits is to stop bidding as soon as possible but if you reached 3NT with the East/West cards you'll likely to be in the same contract as other players I feel.

 

Without knowing the bidding, if West decides to open (rule of 19 maybe) with his shapely but ultimately poor hand, East will be thinking slam slam slam. Stopping him will be extremely difficult.

 

It's awkward to decide upon the exact bidding on the hands as it's likely North/South will intervene in ♥ too.

 

If it is at all possible can you provide the auction on the above deal and then the forum members can comment on the bids made? That may be more productive in the long run, and then we can gently suggest alternatives.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s543hqjt843dkcj96&w=sqt862h2d8caqt754&n=sk97h765dj963ck83&e=sajhak9daqt7542c2]399|300|South deals[/hv]

 

QUALIFICATION: I am departing from the original poster's parameters about the auction and trying to understand a rationale here.

 

This is not to pick on Felicity, but this is what is making me scratch my head....

 

Why would West want to open his hand? He has 1.5 quick tricks and all of the working values are in clubs. The working values in Spades are . . .ummm. . . okay.

 

Rule of 19 says "If the number of High Card Points added to the total of the two longest suits totals 19, the bid is acceptable within the English bridge tournaments."

 

8+11 = 19 so based on the rules, West can open this hand, even though we know it is a very marginal hand and is one point away from a highly unusual method ruling per English standards.

 

We reached and scraped and found a way to open this hand at the one level when it doesn't conform to the traditional opening requirements (2 quick tricks and 13 points). So when the original requirement doesn't work for a 1 level opening bid, let's try some others. . .

 

DECISION TREE for West's hand:

• Does the hand have 13 points and 2 quick tricks; we can't open -- Ignore.
  
• Rule of 22, too stringent for West's hand; we can't open --- Ignore.
  
• Rule of 20, too stringent for West's hand; we can't open --- Ignore.
  
• Rule of 19, ahhh just right. It's acceptable and not highly unusual and as Felicity noted it will inadvertently set up East to have the wrong expectation about the placement of the final contract.
  
• Rule of 18, ahhh just right. It's acceptable and not highly unusual and as Felicity noted it will inadvertently set up East to have the wrong expectation about the placement of the final contract.
  

 

Felicity never said that West will open, but the possibility exists that he could have, and if he did, I bet no one would have even batted an eye.

 

My point being is that bridge is very relative. It's very easy to go opinion shopping for the answer we want. We bypassed three different guidelines that said do not open, to get to the rule of 19 or the rule of 18 as a guideline that says we can open.

 

We can find a rule to justify an opening bid if we look hard enough, but the better question is should we?

 

This applies to both 1 of a suit bids and 2♣opening bids.

 

We have really loosened our belts on the 1 of a suit bids and don't bat an eyelash because being the 1st to open allegedly pays handsome dividends in bridge. We have decided to accept all of the risk associated with the attendant overbids this process generates and have concluded that the collateral damage is simply unavoidable.

 

However, we have placed the 2♣bid on a holy grail of disciplined bidding, but this too shall eventually pass.

[eagles123]

wow a 3 page debate on whether AJ AK9 AQT7542 2 is a 2 club opener lol what has become of this forum!!

[RedSpawn]

wow a 3 page debate on whether AJ AK9 AQT7542 2 is a 2 club opener lol what has become of this forum!!

 

Eagles123, thanks for the input.

 

Can you tell me the LTC on this hand?

 

And please see attached.

 

Lincoln Hills Suggested 2 Club Approach

 

Thanks.

 

This is straight cut and paste from the PDF:

 

THE SUGGESTED APPROACH

1. An opening bid of 2C shows 22+ HCP OR a hand containing a LTC of 4 or less.

ACBL REQUIRES THAT THE BID BE ALERTED BECAUSE THE HAND

COULD CONTAIN SEVERAL POINTS LESS THAN 22+

 

By the way, I have no problems with the alert requirement, but we still haven't gotten past the "that's patently absurd" viewpoint.

[RedSpawn]

Considering the source, I accept this as your explanation for the auction

 

2♣ - 3♣

3NT

 

Johnu, I don't care how the auction ends at this point or how accurate or silly my suggestion is.

 

How the auction progresses is contingent on the partnership agreement of how partner responds and the suit quality he needs to respond to strong 2♣.

 

I know, I know. I am a fool for even suggesting that 2♣ could be on the radar with a maximum LTC=4. That's not winning bridge.

 

Should we go the 1♦ route and reveal all of our controls in the auction or could we tidy up with a valid 2♣ open and keep some information hidden before the opposition decides to pre-empt.

 

These are all fair questions.