No good response to 4th suit forcing

[mike777]

Dealer: South Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ KJ987 ♥ AKJ4 ♦ 93 ♣ 62

You hold this hand at IMPs and the auction, with no competition, goes:

1[sp] [space] 2[di]
2[he] [space] 3[cl]
?

 

What do you bid now?

 

At our match last night there were two schools of thought, luckily for us they were represented by our opposing North and South. One bids 3♦ to deny 6 spades, 5 hearts and a club stop; the other bids 3♠ to deny 5 hearts, a diamond holding and a club stop.

 

Clearly any agreement is better than none, but is there a preference?

 

Paul

3H

 

lOVE TO PLAY THAT MOYSIAN.

 

Good thread, common problem.

 

 

Great issue to give OUR partners and learn alot about what they consider a priority when there is no clear cut answer.

 

For me Priority one is showing where my HCP are.

[flytoox]

Point taken, Roland. But it cannot be a preference, either, as the club bid is artificial. Maybe FORCED is the correct term?

 

Harder still....what do you bid with: KJ942, AKJ4, 8, 643 in the same auction?

 

WinstonM

I would bid 3N, least of evil(only my opinion though). Pd rates to have 3 card in club. Many good things can happen, if pd has a stopper or club breaks 4-3. It is also possible that pd is cue for heart spt.

[HeartA]

3♦. With ♠KJ987, ♥AKJ4, ♦x, ♣xxx, I would bid 3♥, a good 4-card.

[Guest Jlall]

When in doubt make the cheapest reasonable bid.

[han]

I have the general agreement that over any 4th suit forcing I try to make the cheapest bid when possible. So with the 5422 shape I would bid 3D, but with 5413 shape and 3 small clubs I would bid 3H. The higher the bid, the more it should be telling imo.

[Fluffy]

I even played for a while that cheapest voice was either nat or no meaning (5422 or 5431 with xxx in the the 4th suit typically, some 4432 were possible) for a while, it didn't work pretty well unless 4SF was made below 2♠.

 

Answering these one 3♥ is the most natural possible bid, while 3♦ is the less dangerous lie, 3♦ also grants another level of space, all in all I think 3♦ would work better.

[shoeless]

at the risk of wrong siding this particular contract should it hang around to be played - I bid 3nt - 4th suit forces to game - this describes my hand pattern best 5-4-2-2 a high percentage of the time - I am also communicating no interest in slam to this poiint - if pard has something different to say about the hand it will happen over 3nt just as well as 3d or 3 of a major. Someone no doubt has said or will say but 2h doesn't necessarily promise 4 - shrug - it does when i bid it.

[paulg]

Personally I favour 3♠ as the bid in this sequence although partner has to understand this is an option.

 

Firstly with six spades you may well have rebid 2♠ rather 2♥.

 

If partner is just looking for the best game, then you can still bid 4♠ with six spades after he bids the 3NT "in doubt", so there is no need for him to directly raise with a doubleton.

 

Paul

[Walddk]

at the risk of wrong siding this particular contract should it hang around to be played - I bid 3nt - 4th suit forces to game - this describes my hand pattern best 5-4-2-2 a high percentage of the time - I am also communicating no interest in slam to this poiint .......  Someone no doubt has said or will say but 2h doesn't necessarily promise 4 - shrug - it does when i bid it.

True, 3NT doesn't promise any slam interest. No bid at the 3-level does!

 

It is also true that 2♥ promises 4+ cards, and it is finally a fact that 3NT promises a club stopper. I can't find any. 3NT is actually the worst of all options in my opinion. The best lie is 3♦.

 

Roland

[HeartA]

Personally I favour 3♠ as the bid in this sequence although partner has to understand this is an option.

 

Firstly with six spades you may well have rebid 2♠ rather 2♥.

 

If partner is just looking for the best game, then you can still bid 4♠ with six spades after he bids the 3NT "in doubt", so there is no need for him to directly raise with a doubleton.

 

Paul

With 6-4 majors, I would rebid 2♥. 1♠-2♦-2♥-3♣-3♠ shows 6♠s (or very good 5), at least in my style.

[pclayton]

The idea about the cheapest suit at the 2 level to be the default call is intriguing. Auctions such as 1S -2C - 2S are problematic, since the entire 2 level is gobbled up and no meaningful info has been exchanged. I play that a rebid of the major does not promise 6 and is the default, however I find myself hardly ever rebidding 2N especially since I play a 12 - 14 NT and open that with a 5 card major regularly.

[beatrix45]

B)

 

Why did partner bid 3C??? Since I don't have an ideal call, my thought is to consider each of the possibilities and see what bid I can make that will do the most good, or at any rate do the least harm.

 

1. Partner wants ME to play the hand at three NT. Always a good choice with Trixie at the wheel. Even my good partners sometimes get a little tired and want a short break. If this is a live possibility, then I think that it is by far the most probable one. In that event 3NT is automatic.

 

2. Partner is slammish and wants to uncover a diamond fit when I give a diamond preference. Well, a simple preference does not show all that much support, my diamond holding could be worse, but I don't have real support, and my hand is only average minus in a slam auction. A slow 3D preference shows my hand but is outright cheating. I really don't like a 3D bid because, if pard takes it seriously, it might propel us into a 6D contract looking for the trump king and off another trick. If 6D is right, we might still get there after a 3NT bid.

 

3. Partner has three hearts and short spades and is looking for 4H or more or some number of NT. 3H is an outright lie about my suit length, but sometimes 4-3 major fits are the best spot. My spade holding argues that this is probably NOT one of these hands. So, 3H will likely work out OK, but I don't think it is the best bid.

 

4. Partner is 5-5 or 6-5 in the minors with enough cards to be slammish. In this case I don't got it for him/her. Only the AK of hearts is positive. So, in this case, 3NT is the best bid, and if pard bids 4C, I can give a forced, tepid 4D preference. Most often pard will pass 3NT, and we should be in the best spot. Play all misfits in NT (just kidding).

 

5. Partner has good 4 card heart support and 3C is the first step in a slam auction. In this case, I want to slow the auction down a little, and 3 NT will do that best. We should get to the right level in hearts with no problem.

 

The bottom line for me - 3NT!!!

[HeartA]

B)

 

Why did partner bid 3C???  Since I don't have an ideal call, my thought is to consider each of the possibilities and see what bid I can make that will do the most good, or at any rate do the least harm.

 

1. Partner wants ME to play the hand at three NT.  Always a good choice with Trixie at the wheel.  Even my good partners sometimes get a little tired and want a short break.  If this is a live possibility, then I think that it is by far the most probable one.  In that event 3NT is automatic.

 

2. Partner is slammish and wants to uncover a diamond fit when I give a diamond preference.  Well, a simple preference does not show all that much support, my diamond holding could be worse, but I don't have real support, and my hand is only average minus in a slam auction.  A slow 3D preference shows my hand but is outright cheating. I really don't like a 3D bid because, if pard takes it seriously, it might propel us into a 6D contract looking for the trump king and off another trick.  If 6D is right, we might still get there after a 3NT bid.

 

3. Partner has three hearts and short spades and is looking for 4H or more or some number of NT.  3H is an outright lie about my suit length, but sometimes 4-3 major fits are the best spot.  My spade holding argues that this is probably NOT one of these hands.  So, 3H will likely work out OK, but I don't think it is the best bid.

 

4. Partner is 5-5 or 6-5 in the minors with enough cards to be slammish.  In this case I don't got it for him/her.  Only the AK of hearts is positive.  So, in this case, 3NT is the best bid, and if pard bids 4C, I can give a forced, tepid 4D preference.  Most often pard will pass 3NT, and we should be in the best spot.  Play all misfits in NT (just kidding).

 

5. Partner has good 4 card heart support and 3C is the first step in a slam auction.  In this case, I want to slow the auction down a little, and 3 NT will do that best.  We should get to the right level in hearts with no problem.

 

The bottom line for me - 3NT!!!

1. Partner uses "tired and want a break" as an excuse to not bid a hand properly? Give me a break! If he has a (relatively) flat hand and has ♣ stopper(s), why didn't he bid 3NT himself?

 

2. Again I can't bid 3N since I don't have stoppers or any honor in ♣. But I have minimum support for ♦, so I bid 3♦.

 

3. Since partner is short of ♠ (singleton, I suppose?), 3 ♥s only, and yet can't bid NT (not good/long in ♣), he must have long ♦. I don't want to play 4-3 fit of ♥ because I can't afford of forcing with ♣s, and I don't have ♣ honor. I can't bid 3NT, but willing to play 6-2 fit of ♦. Whether of not pd wants to go to game (or slam) is up to him.

 

4. See #2.

 

5. My 3♦ is the cheapest call, and my pd should not get excited about it. I would not go beyong game unless I am forced to.

 

 

The bottom line: 3♦. 3NT is out of the question.

[Walddk]

It's an illusion if you think 3♦ shows 3. It can be 3 of course, but it could just as well be 2 if:

 

1. I have no club stopper.

 

2. I have no 5th heart.

 

3. I have no 6th spade.

 

3♦ is not support for diamonds, it's preference between 3♦, 3♥, 3♠ and 3NT, and very likely a doubleton with nothing else to bid because I can't live up to 1., 2. and 3. above.

 

Roland

[PriorKnowledge]

Playing 2/1, I would rebid 3N. Although the 3C bid may be manufactored, opener treats it as natural in a GF auction.

 

If bidding 3N without a club stopper scares you, then bid 3S.

 

3D and 3H are positive and not "temporizing" bids. 3D shows 3-card support, implying a singleton club, and 3H shows a 55.

[beatrix45]

Playing 2/1, I would rebid 3N. Although the 3C bid may be manufactored, opener treats it as natural in a GF auction.

:(

 

I second your view. Not playing 2/1, the 3D call has much more going for it. But, if we are in a game force, then partner could have bid 3D to look for a club stop with 2-3-5-3 distribution. Opposite 2-3-4-4 distribution, I probably want to be in 3NT regardless.

 

Sometimes I think that the whole concept of bidding a 4th suit forcing without the traditional holding in the suit has been escalating out of control in recent years. For some people it has gone from an occasionally necessary evil to a preferred method. On this hand a lot of correspondents say they have to bid diamonds they don't really have to allow for the possibility that partner has bid clubs she doesn't really have. Maybe we ought to define fourth suit bids in these kind of auctions as artificial relay calls and have done with it.