paulg Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 [hv=d=s&v=n&s=skj987hakj4d93c62]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]You hold this hand at IMPs and the auction, with no competition, goes:1[sp] [space] 2[di] 2[he] [space] 3[cl] ? What do you bid now? At our match last night there were two schools of thought, luckily for us they were represented by our opposing North and South. One bids 3♦ to deny 6 spades, 5 hearts and a club stop; the other bids 3♠ to deny 5 hearts, a diamond holding and a club stop. Clearly any agreement is better than none, but is there a preference? Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 I bid 3♥ here. I don't mind bidding a 2 card diamond suit on this auction, but I do mind bidding it if it is xx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamaco Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 IMO 3D is the most economical and practical bid.It show tolerance for D, and more or less "nothing to say". I think 3H should show 55. Here the suit is a strong 4 bagger, but the hand 5422 makes me lean towards making the bid best suited to land in NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 I reply 3S. There exists a 3rd school, who would reply 3H, because, for them, 3S would show 6. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ochinko Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 I am not biiding 3♦ with 9x. What's wrong with 3♥? Ok, I have only four of them but twice as many points than in spades. Playing with 4:3 hearts is more appealing than 4:2 diamonds. Petko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joker_gib Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 3♦ = 3 cards3♥ = 5 cards3 NT = ♣ stopper So I have to bid 3♠ : sort of waiting bid B) Alain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 Here I bid 3D. As you say, it's just a matter of what partner expects you to do with the hand where you have nothing new to say. Take the auction1D - 1H - 1S - 2C As I rebid 1NT on all balanced hands over 1H, I have already shown either 5 diamonds and 4 spades or a 4144. A 4144 would bid 2NT over 2C. So now 2D shows a 6th diamond, 2S shows a 5th spade, 2NT shows a club stop, 3C shows extra values without a stop (I don't play 4SF as game forcing) and 2H is anything left. I'd bid 2H on KQxx Q AKxxx xxx. However, if I played a method where 1D - 1H - 1S may still be balanced, then 1D - 1H - 1S - 2C - 2D merely shows a 5th diamond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 3D or 3S, depending on what I had for dinner... lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 I vote for 3D. After establishing a minor "fit", our priority is to look for 3N. I am not too worried about pd bidding 5/6D. However, if I rebid 3H/3S and get raised to 4H/S, I am not happy. Actually, from the bidding, pd almost surely has 6 diamonds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamaco Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 3♦ = 3 cards3♥ = 5 cards3 NT = ♣ stopper So I have to bid 3♠ : sort of waiting bid :D Alain Bidding 3S as a "tempo bid" loses a lot of space. I think in such a sequence there is a point in using 1st step as "nothing to say", not promising/denying anything. If pard does not expect anything in diamond, he can now bid:-3H = offer a moysian in Hearts or asking to bid 4D if I do have diamonds-3S = offer a 52 fit in spades or asking to bid 4D if I do have diamonds-3NT = showing that he indeed had a stopper but wanted to verify if I had support for diamonds; in that case, if I do have D support I'll bid 4D- and so forth.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 3♦, no problem for me. It doesn't promise support, it's merely "preference". The problem would have been much harder after 1♠ - 2♣2♥ - 3♦ Now you have to rebid one of your majors. With the actual hand it's obviously best to huddle followed by 3♦, 3♥ or 3♠, but I don't think that's allowed. Well, it is as long as partner doesn't take advantage of the UI. Petko says that 3♦ may get us to a 4-2 fit. Never in a million years opposite a partner who knows what he is doing. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 I feel that in this difficult auction the "room-saving" bid of 3D has more merit. It seems obvious that partner is not comfortable with placing the contract and more information is needed - by both players. Three diamonds allows partner to bid: 3H on A, Q10x, AKxxxx, xxx to suggest the 4/33S with Ax, Qx, AKxxxx, xxx to suggest the 5/23N with Ax, xx, AQJxxx, Qxx to suggest a weak club holding4D with Ax, xx, AKQxxx, Kxx to suggest a slam Although I'd prefer Qx to bid 3D, partner should not get too excited with this delayed support as he must realize that it may be almost forced. I feel it is much more important to retain the meaning of 3S to show 6/4 and 3H as 5/5 than to have 3D mean anything more than xx. winstonm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joker_gib Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 3♦ = 3 cards3♥ = 5 cards3 NT = ♣ stopper So I have to bid 3♠ : sort of waiting bid :D Alain Bidding 3S as a "tempo bid" loses a lot of space. I think in such a sequence there is a point in using 1st step as "nothing to say", not promising/denying anything. If pard does not expect anything in diamond, he can now bid:-3H = offer a moysian in Hearts or asking to bid 4D if I do have diamonds-3S = offer a 52 fit in spades or asking to bid 4D if I do have diamonds-3NT = showing that he indeed had a stopper but wanted to verify if I had support for diamonds; in that case, if I do have D support I'll bid 4D- and so forth.... I totally agree and will discuss that with my partner. It is clear that it's better to use the more economical bid to show "nothing to say" ! :D Alain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 Although I'd prefer Qx to bid 3D, partner should not get too excited with this delayed support winstonm I agree with everything else you are saying Winston, but it's wrong to use the word "support" in this context. 3♦ does not promise support. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 Point taken, Roland. But it cannot be a preference, either, as the club bid is artificial. Maybe FORCED is the correct term? Harder still....what do you bid with: KJ942, AKJ4, 8, 643 in the same auction? WinstonM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 Point taken, Roland. But it cannot be a preference, either, as the club bid is artificial. Maybe FORCED is the correct term? Harder still....what do you bid with: KJ942, AKJ4, 8, 643 in the same auction? WinstonM Toss a coin and bid 3MA. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamaco Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 What about:1S:2C2H:3D? You hold:KJ942, AKJ4, 8, 643 ------------------------------------ Perhaps this highlights the need to use for responder's 2nd round rebid NEXT STEP as a sort of Bourke Relay, rather than space-wasting 3m as 4sf. 1S:2C2H:? Here 2S does not promise /deny spades but is just a relay, "a la 4th suit forcing" but saving space.2NT might do the job but I hate wrongsiding the contract.I much prefer using 2NT for one of the following options:a. natural, showing NT-oriented handb. artificial, showing REAL spades. In this case NT-oriented hand would bid 2S, forcing, and rebid later 3NT. This applies only if 2/1 is Game Force thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 I feel that in this difficult auction the "room-saving" bid of 3D has more merit. It seems obvious that partner is not comfortable with placing the contract and more information is needed - by both players. Three diamonds allows partner to bid: 3H on A, Q10x, AKxxxx, xxx to suggest the 4/33S with Ax, Qx, AKxxxx, xxx to suggest the 5/23N with Ax, xx, AQJxxx, Qxx to suggest a weak club holding4D with Ax, xx, AKQxxx, Kxx to suggest a slam Although I'd prefer Qx to bid 3D, partner should not get too excited with this delayed support as he must realize that it may be almost forced. I feel it is much more important to retain the meaning of 3S to show 6/4 and 3H as 5/5 than to have 3D mean anything more than xx. winstonm [hv=s=skjxxxhakjxdxcxxx]133|100|What do you bid over 3♣. Now tell me, it will be 3♦ because you still reserve 3♥ for five card suit and 3♠ for six card one... so partner will allow you to have one diamond.... after all you are under pressure (yes, many of you will say this). [/hv] Your hand is HEARTS (not diamonds). Let's look at winstonm hands after the 3♥ rebid... A, Q10x, AKxxxx, xxx instead of 3H to suggest a 4/3, bid 4H to play a 4-3 or 5-3. If your partner is on only a four card heart suit, it is a STRONG one, which you will need to play the 4-3 fit. After a 3♦ raise, 5♦ thoughts begin to dance in partners mind (not to mention possible 6♦). Ax, Qx, AKxxxx, xxx, still bid 3♠ to suggest a potential playing spot in a 5-2 fit, just as he did, over the 3♦ bid. Ax, xx, AQJxxx, Qxx to suggest a weak club holding, still tries 3NT over 3♥, and will land in 4♠ now (not 5♦ when opener pulls. If the bidding goes, 3D-3N-what will opener do but bid 4D? Ax, xx, AKQxxx, Kxx nothing prevents a 4D (forcing after 4th suit) even if partner rebids 3♥. A real 5-5 partner will rebid 4H over this. I don't see a big downside myself to showing where you live (heart values). Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 I agree with a lot of your assessment, Ben, but I prefer not to alter my bidding of my hand pattern unless forced to. With KJ9xx, AKJx, x, xxx I am forced to. With this I will bid 3H as the least of evils. Winstonm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 (edited) 3♦ - economical. 3♣ uses space that 2N doesn't, so it should be pretty defined. 2♣ then 3♦ by opener uses even more space, so it should be even more defined; probably a 5-6. With a 4-6, stall with 2N. Edited April 19, 2005 by pclayton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 I don't see a big downside myself to showing where you live (heart values). Ben I do opposite AxQ10xAKxxxxAQ I want to be in 6♦, not any other slam, not even 6NT. It's an illusion to think that you can bid 4♦ over 3♥ now, since partner could easily be 5512. You need a better diamond suit for that. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 I don't see a big downside myself to showing where you live (heart values). Ben I do opposite AxQ10xAKxxxxAQ I want to be in 6♦, not any other slam, not even 6NT. It's an illusion to think that you can bid 4♦ over 3♥ now, since partner could easily be 5512. You need a better diamond suit for that. Roland Why Roland.. If diamonds are 3-2 you have 12 tricks in NT (2S, 4H, 5D, 1S)... If diamonds are 4-1, you have at most 11 tricks in diamonds, but you may have 12 tricks in NT... (5S, 4H, 2D, 1C)... or a squeeze, (3S, 4H, 2D, 2C -- lost a diamond, if hand iwht 4D has 4S). I would MUCH prefer to be in 6NT. Added bonus to 6NT is it will score much better at matchpoints where the field will be there you will get below average for 6D if both makes), and at imps where the extra 70 pts is worth a modest 2 imps. . But since 6NT is safer and scores more, I go there.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walddk Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 I agree, 6NT was an error on my part. Went too fast. Roland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 Harder still....what do you bid with: KJ942, AKJ4, 8, 643 in the same auction? WinstonM 3D. Easy. Partner bid 4th suit forcing for a reason. That reason might be because he has a big hand with heart support or spade support. If he bids 3H over 3D it shows 4-card support. He bids 3NT on a hand that was just looking for the best game - I know that this shows doubt about the final contract, or he would have bid 3NT last round, so I can pull on a suitable hand. It's much tougher after 1S - 2C - 2H - 3D, now I probably do have to invent a 5th heart (or a 6th spade, depending on the suits). But partner knows this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winstonm Posted April 19, 2005 Report Share Posted April 19, 2005 Partner bid 4th suit forcing for a reason. That reason might be because he has a big hand with heart support or spade support. There are plusses and minuses to all treatments, of course, but if playing 2/1 then at least this problem is solved - with the hand described you support either hearts or spades and do not have to use the 4th suit to create a game force. winstonm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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