help with a lebensohl fiasco?

[Infidel]

when leb is used after interference with our 1NT opener, we often have three ways to get a spade suit into the auction: Assuming the overcall is below the 2S level, we can sign off in 2S, bid a GF 3S, or use the Leb relay to get to 3S with limited strength, inviting game...but does this also apply to other lebensohl applications? the hand:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=shkqj5daq8cajt753&w=s86ha8732dj532c92&n=saqj432h6dk964c86&e=skt975ht94dt7ckq4&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=1cp1sp2hp2np3cp3sp3nppp]399|300|South's 3c bid was originally 3d; W explained the alerts to N, who then changed the call to 3c[/hv]

 

I was North. P and I have discussed Leb, but not deeply. ("Leb? OK; over reverses? Sure, why not...")P is also aware that I will reverse on slightly weaker hands, knowing Leb is there as a control.

 

I used 2N as a "range finder," planning to push to slam if Partner bypassed the relay. The conversation at the table caused me some ethical difficulties, but that's a whole different story...I hoped the jump after 3c meant I still wanted to get to game, and that I had a very good spade suit, then didn't think I could move over 3NT...turned out wonderfully, since 4S had no chance, much less any slam.

 

Very simple question: Is my use of Leb, followed by the spade jump, a reasonable use of that sequence? Or what else might it mean, among folks who knew what they were doing? I "invented" the call on the spot, with full knowledge it might be misunderstood. Now...what if P had instead bid 3d over my 2N (I think it's a close decision, actually)...then, of course, I get to an impossible slam of some sort, but I'm not sure what strength 2N-3d-3S should be showing...I'd guess it's a bare minimum that was attempting to sign off over 3c, but was now forced to continue to game, at least.

 

any other suggestions also welcome, of course

[steve2005]

Lebensohl after a reverse isn't as cut and dry as after a 1N opening. People have different methods. This is a different situation as responder should have a least some minimum number of hcp.

The method I'm used to would rebid 2♠ F1 with most hands with 5+♠

This hand is good enough to bid 3♠ perhaps not with 432 as spots

[johnu]

I would recommend that you read this excellent thread about reverses:

 

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/18177-a-primer-on-reverse-bidding/

 

FWIW, I would have bid 3♠ after partner reversed.

[rmnka447]

Just get your agreements sorted out.

 

Usually 2NT as Lebensohl is the start of a sign off sequence by partners whose reverses can be a little lighter (15-16). Typically, if opener has made a "soft" reverse, opener follows through with the relay and responder signs off. However, with a full reverse (17+), opener is free to break the relay and make another descriptive bid. I think the reason for this is that relaying and then bidding you suit as invitational takes up quite a bit of bidding space. It's often important to save this space in order to let the reversing hand finish telling their story when responder game invitational or better.

 

First, with a good ♠ suit and 10 HCP opposite any reverse, responder definitely is in game force range even opposite a soft 15-16 reverse. So, responder probably shouldn't use Lebensohl, but just rebid ♠. So, I'd see something like

 

1 ♣ - 1 ♠

2 ♥ - 3 ♠

3 NT

 

as a decent auction.

 

With something like KJ10xxx x Kxxx xx, then responder can bid 2 ♠ showing a positive response, but with KQ109xx x Jxxx xx relay and signoff.

[Vampyr]

Why is West explaining anything to North? Why is this an expert matter?

[Infidel]

Why is West explaining anything to North? Why is this an expert matter?

 

Well, W felt free to discuss because it was a friendly game with lots of byplay and discussion going on. And I posted here becuase I wanted some expert opinions, and because when I try to discuss Leb with non-experts I tend to get "that's just too complicated" from most. Please feel free to ignore.

[rhm]

Where is the fiasco?

3NT is the best contract for North South.

 

With regard to reverse bidding I agree with your philosophy.

There are different ways you can play reverses (strong hand, but how strong a hand) and continuations after a reverse

 

I like that responder has some means of stopping low. This reduces the (exaggerated) strength requirement for a reverse.

 

Many play that a reverse is very strong, almost a game force, and if responder rebids his major at the two-level it is forcing.

Though popular, I believe this is not best. Opener will rarely have the requirements for such a super-strong reverse. Problems tend to arise when opener is one or two HCP below such a super-strong reverse hand.

 

Ingbergman / Lebensol is fine, except that I like to be able to stop in responder's major at the two level if there is no fit and opener is minimum for his reverse.

Assuming you do not play weak jumps in repsonse to a minor suit opening responder will often respond with a sub minimum and a long major.

Accordingly I like a rebid by responder's major to be limited and non forcing though opener will continue with a fit.

Assuming you do not play weak jumps in response to a minor suit opening responder will often respond with a sub minimum and a major suit.

The corollary is that if responder uses Ingbergman / Lebensol and then rebids his major at the 3-level it is forcing to game.

Whether the actual spade suit is good enough for an immediate jump to 3♠ (good hand strong suit) can be argued.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[fourdad]

Frankly, these kind of questions drive me nuts.

 

Why play a convention that leads to these questions?

Is it not clear that the 2H bid is a reverse showing 16+?

Is it not clear that the 2H bid shows stoppers in Clubs and hearts?

Does not N have 10+ points and a Diamond stopper?

 

Why is not his simplest least complicated most informative action to not just add the 10 he has to the 16 partner has shown and bid 3NT?

 

No confusion, no disaster, best contract reached.

 

Bippity boppity BOO!!

[miamijd]

There are many ways to play after a reverse.

 

Probably the most common expert treatment is that the lower of fourth suit or 2NT is the "negative" bid, after which opener's bid of 3 of his minor is non-forcing.

 

Some (including me) like to play the negative bid as "good-bad," meaning that if opener "signs off" in 3 of his minor and I bid again, then I have slam interest.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[dboxley]

Frankly, these kind of questions drive me nuts.

 

Why play a convention that leads to these questions? BECAUSE IT MAKES THE BIDDING MORE ACCURATE

Is it not clear that the 2H bid is a reverse showing 16+? OBVIOUSLY

Is it not clear that the 2H bid shows stoppers in Clubs and hearts? OBVIOUSLY

Does not N have 10+ points and a Diamond stopper? I SEE, U R A POINT-COUNTER!

 

Why is not his simplest least complicated most informative action to not just add the 10 he has to the 16 partner has shown and bid 3NT? JUST BECAUSE U HAVE A DIAMOND STOPPER DOES NOT MEAN THE BEST SPOT IS 3NT

 

No confusion, no disaster, best contract reached. NO BRAINS USED OR REQUIRED!

 

Bippity boppity BOO!!

[aguahombre]

The sequence used here, seems about right to me.

 

The hands with Six Spades indeed have 3 routes after the 2♥ reverse. The ranges for our 3 routes are:

 

1) 2♠ minimum..6-8 (working points for Spades)

2) 3♠ 11+

3) via 2nt, then 3♠ with about the hand you had.

 

Yes, hands with only five spades will also bid 2♠..but we are talking about what we do with six.

 

Responding hands without responding values but having 6 Spades bid 2♠ inititally.

 

The choices of others will vary because of different requirements for a reverse, different requirements for an initial spade response, or just because the pair hasn't given it much thought.

 

BTW: Good job, dboxley.