How high do you bid?

[silvr bull]

This was not a goulash. Really! But BBO often recycles hands that look like they started in a goulash zoo.

This was MPs and both sides vul. What do you do with your 9 card H suit?

 

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[FelicityR]

In 3rd position you could consider something, but in 2nd it's definitely a no go. Just pass. Even at white/red.

[alok c]

4♥

[rmnka447]

Pass.

 

In 2nd seat, one opponent has already shown less than an opener, so the probability that the opponents have game or more has decreased. Normally, then, it only makes sense to have fairly solid preempts. This is especially true, when vulnerable, where down 1 doubled is a worse result than any part score their way.

 

Here, you've got 2 HCP and RHO has passed. Give RHO a good pass hand, say, something like 10 HCP and that leaves about 28 HCP to be split between LHO and partner. Evenly split that leaves each hand with about 14 HCP. Partner's points are just a tad more valuable for being behind LHO. So, chances are that the opponents are a little short of game unless there's a less likely big imbalance of how the points are distributed between the remaining hands. So, the possibility of a doubled set versus a part score are there.

[Stefan_O]

Probably, we have 7 heart tricks with no help from pd.

Conservative style, open 3H (no worse than -500 doubled, against their 600+ game).

Aggressive style (assume pd can help with one trick somewhere), open 4H.

[msjennifer]

Any bid except PASS is a bad bid in second seat .The WORST possible bid is 4Hearts.I shall pass.

I fully agree with rmnka447 and the argument that has been made therein.

[U19]

according to rule of 2/3, Five winning tricks,2!h is considerable.

[GrahamJson]

One of the risks of opening 4H, and to a lesser extent 3H, is that partner could hold something like AKxx Q AK Axxxxx and will bid six trusting you for a suit headed by at least KJ.

[Cyberyeti]

Pass.

 

In 2nd seat, one opponent has already shown less than an opener, so the probability that the opponents have game or more has decreased. Normally, then, it only makes sense to have fairly solid preempts. This is especially true, when vulnerable, where down 1 doubled is a worse result than any part score their way.

 

Here, you've got 2 HCP and RHO has passed. Give RHO a good pass hand, say, something like 10 HCP and that leaves about 28 HCP to be split between LHO and partner. Evenly split that leaves each hand with about 14 HCP. Partner's points are just a tad more valuable for being behind LHO. So, chances are that the opponents are a little short of game unless there's a less likely big imbalance of how the points are distributed between the remaining hands. So, the possibility of a doubled set versus a part score are there.

 

Unfortunately partner had Axxxx, AK, AKx, Jxx and went down in 1♠ with 6♥ cold, opps had 10/9 and 4th seat had too many spades to want to protect.

 

It is not danger free to pass. Not sure what I'd do at the table, probably 2♥ which for us can be a near bust, and if partner inquires I'll bid 4♥ showing something bad and distributional, but more difficult if you play more normal weak 2s.

[Joe_Old]

Worst case scenario: you have five tricks, -1400 in 4♥. But in that case it is hard to construct a hand where the opponents don't make 12 or 13 tricks unless all finesses lose to partner. Assuming that your 4 level openers deny an A or K outside, a 4♥ bid here gives partner a good picture (I admit that having a 9 card suit makes me bolder, any color but red v white). It would never occur to me to bid 2 or 3 here, absent special agreements like Cyberyeti's, because the suit length calls for a bigger pre-empt. When you have a hand that can most accurately be described in one bid, take it.

 

This is MP's, and a bad guess on one board will not throw a match. I'm not sure that I would chance bidding on this mess if the game were IMP's because partner could have enough stuff sitting behind North to defeat a high level contract, and still be of no use to you.

 

Also, if you pass initially, a hand with a very long, weak suit and zero defense is very difficult to show. If you pass, then bid and partner makes a high level penalty double, you will be (almost) 100% obligated to pull it. Further, you have no support for any suit partner might have, and your hand is valueless on offense except in ♥. On defense the hand doesn't even offer a first round ruff.

 

I vote 4♥.

[Joe_Old]

Was is Edgar Kaplan who said, "what do you call an eight card suit? Trump." Hard to believe that a nine card suit would be any different.

[johnu]

Unfortunately partner had Axxxx, AK, AKx, Jxx and went down in 1♠ with 6♥ cold, opps had 10/9 and 4th seat had too many spades to want to protect.

 

I don't know how that could ever happen, but I agree with the general direction of where you were heading.

[johnu]

One of the risks of opening 4H, and to a lesser extent 3H, is that partner could hold something like AKxx Q AK Axxxxx and will bid six trusting you for a suit headed by at least KJ.

 

I always leave my house with an open umbrella over my head in case something falls from the sky and the umbrella will save me. So far, this has worked well.

 

Of course, with your example hand, some people might check for keycards and avoid a slam, but I'm sure that would be overly cautious.

[johnu]

Surely the most descriptive bid for a hand with a 9 card suit is to start with pass. I'm sure you'll have plenty of time to show a hand with 9 hearts and no points later in the auction.

[GrahamJson]

I always leave my house with an open umbrella over my head in case something falls from the sky and the umbrella will save me. So far, this has worked well.

 

Of course, with your example hand, some people might check for keycards and avoid a slam, but I'm sure that would be overly cautious.

Ok, I accept that mine was an extreme example but it was meant to illustrate a principle. If you open 4H partner will never imagine that you are lacking any honour. This could turn out badly in a number of ways, such as partner doubling oppo or competing too high.

[msjennifer]

Although no one bothers about at what level you open such a hand after two passes in the 3rd seat ,there have to be some limitations of the 4C(Tr to hearts) and 4D ( Tr to spades) and 4H/S openings in the first two seats.As we were taught 4C/D bids are directed to be 0,1 2 down contracts (with an A or K outside)as per the vulnerabilities,whereas 4H/S openings in those seats are directed to be 1,2,3 down contracts ( with no honors outside)as per vulnerabilities and it is not at all advisable to break these rules just to preempt opponents and misguide the partner about the values he expects from your hand.I feel strongly that the 4H bid is the best bid to break ones partnership.What will you open with x,AKxxxxxx,xx,xx ? Will you now say 1,2 or 3 H,since now you can not open 4H ,a bid which you reserved for the garbage hand given in the example ? Why quote Edgar Kaplan who died almost 20 years ago on 07/09/1997 ?

[PhilG007]

This was not a goulash. Really! But BBO often recycles hands that look like they started in a goulash zoo.

This was MPs and both sides vul. What do you do with your 9 card H suit?

 

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Horrid hand....even with the 9 carder. I pass quickly

[PhilG007]

This was not a goulash. Really! But BBO often recycles hands that look like they started in a goulash zoo.

This was MPs and both sides vul. What do you do with your 9 card H suit?

 

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[cherdano]

I can't believe anyone would pass this. If 4H breaks this partnership, then you should be glad to get out.

Oh. And if you were taught that 4H shows 8 tricks at equal vulnerability, then it's about time to drop out of the class and start forgetting what you were taught.

 

 

This hand makes 7 tricks in hearts, and 0 elsewhere. End of story.

[johnu]

Ok, I accept that mine was an extreme example but it was meant to illustrate a principle. If you open 4H partner will never imagine that you are lacking any honour. This could turn out badly in a number of ways, such as partner doubling oppo or competing too high.

 

Yes, some partners would play me for a heart trick and 1 or 2 tricks on the side after I open with a preempt. And a probable 7+ playing tricks is hugely overstating the playing strength since some partners would expect 9 or 10 tricks in hand to open 4♥. I guess I'm lucky I don't play with those partners.

[MrAce]

I can't believe anyone would pass this. If 4H breaks this partnership, then you should be glad to get out.

Oh. And if you were taught that 4H shows 8 tricks at equal vulnerability, then it's about time to drop out of the class and start forgetting what you were taught.

 

 

This hand makes 7 tricks in hearts, and 0 elsewhere. End of story.

 

This!

I wanted to write and in fact did write similar things yesterday in this topic but then I realized I was too harsh to passers and deleted, decided not to post. Arend said it more polite than I could.

Even thought of passing sounds insane to me!

[sfi]

Sometimes bridge is about logic and exchanging lots of information to achieve the best possible score on the hand, and sometimes it is a guessing game where both sides are at risk of making a mistake, no matter what action can take. Part of the skill is knowing which type of hand you are playing at the moment, and how to sway the odds in your favour once you have made that decision.

 

If you pass now, you will have a lot more information that may help you to decide how many hearts to bid. Your partner will also know whether it is right to compete or double. Problem is, the opponents will gain those same advantages. So the first thing you need to decide is which type of hand it is. Only then can you work out whether you want to bid and how much.

 

On the actual hand, if I bid 4H LHO is likely to have a real problem. They might get it right, they might not, and they might not have a good choice. But what I do know is that if they get it wrong partner will know to double. Sure, partner may play me for honours in my suit and we get to 5H when it's our hand. But they may not be able to double, or they might sacrifice over it, or we might just make when hearts are 1-1. If I pass, the opponents will work out where their fit is and each get a chance to express their opinion on whether they want to play game.

 

So when I bid 4H we are way ahead in the guessing game, and I like those odds. I don't like our odds when I pass. Hence 4H it is.

[the hog]

I gree with Arend. This is an obvious opening pre empt. 4H. I do not believe that any player in an expert game would pass this.

[FelicityR]

On my first post on this discussion I passed. I still - perhaps a bit reluctantly as I have seen the poll - pass, even though the 4♥ bidders or pre-empters outnumber us 'passers' on the poll by 3 to 1 as I write.

 

I was given sound advice years ago: Never pre-empt your partner. I take on board that pre-empts have got lighter and lighter in recent years, and that this hand hasn't got any tricks outside the trump suit so, on the face of it, is suitable for a pre-empt.

 

So I'd rather bid 3♥ on the rule of 2/3 than 4♥ if any pre-empt is to be made. 4♥ promises more than this 'horrid suit' as someone commented. Actually, no-one's commented that while 4♥ takes a level away from the opponents, it could possibly also bounce the opponents into a slam easier as a suit, 4NT, or double bid over 4♥ by North would be seen as stronger than a similar bid over 3♥, especially at this vulnerability with a passed partner.

[cherdano]

The problem with 3H is that we may be scoring 10 tricks. Partner wouldn't raise with the singleton Queen of trumps and two aces.

 

Here is the thing. If LHO opponent has most of the values, we obviously want to preempt him, and bid 4H. But if partner has mostarted of the values, then 4H is extremely likely to be the right contract, and so we want to bid 4H. (It may be the only way to get there depending on your methods over partners 1S opening...)