So where did the wheels fall off?

[nugatory]

[hv=pc=n&w=skj986ha75dk6c743&e=s53hq632daqt9caj5&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=p1s2cdp2hp4hppp]266|200[/hv]

 

Matchpoint scoring.

 

OK, so this is not going to be a great success. Among the questions that came up in the subsequent discussion:

1) Is the west hand worth an opening bid?

2) Is there such a thing as a hand with 4-4 in the reds that does not make a negative double after 1S(2C)?

3) Who if anyone bids NT, and when? (On the actual deal, DeepFinesse says 2N makes but of course that's on a particular NS layout).

4) Does west's 2H call promise four hearts?

5) What is a sane auction to a sane contract?

[MrAce]

[hv=pc=n&w=skj986ha75dk6c743&e=s53hq632daqt9caj5&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=p1s2cdp2hp4hppp]266|200[/hv]

 

Matchpoint scoring.

 

OK, so this is not going to be a great success. Among the questions that came up in the subsequent discussion:

1) Is the west hand worth an opening bid?

2) Is there such a thing as a hand with 4-4 in the reds that does not make a negative double after 1S(2C)?

3) Who if anyone bids NT, and when? (On the actual deal, DeepFinesse says 2N makes but of course that's on a particular NS layout).

4) Does west's 2H call promise four hearts?

5) What is a sane auction to a sane contract?

 

1)To me it is

2)No

3)E should bid 3 NT anyway. That is choice of games since he did not bid direct 3 NT over 2♣ 3 NT after double means exactly this hand.

4-No.

5-Read #3. I can not stay below game with EW hands. And 3 NT is not hopeless. I admit not a game you want to be in a MP event.

[TylerE]

Single worst bid was W's 2♥. Should just bid 2♠, which does not promise 6.

[silvr bull]

1) Is the west hand worth an opening bid?

This hand could have the values for an opening bid, but only if E has a S fit. If E has x or xx in Ss, this hand will be a disappointment to him. If E does have a fit in S, then he will often bid too high. My guess is that the risk of a pass out when your side can plus in 2 or 3 S is less than the risk that E will overbid to a negative score. I prefer to pass the W hand as a desirable way to limit it (to reduce the risk of over optimism by partner), and hope I can then show values later by aggressive bids.

[xavierf]

I would open with west, and would bid 2S with west on the negative double, but i think that depends on your style.

 

With east I would rebid 3NT after 2H, which I agree need to be a choiche of games.

[ahydra]

I would open with W, but only just (the prime cards and spade intermediates tip the balance).

 

After that, 1S (2C) X; 2S 3N. I have no clue why W bid 2H - that should indeed show 4 cards.

 

ahydra

[ggwhiz]

I would open the west hand in 3rd or 4th seat but not 2nd. Having done so it is essential to apply the brakes with a 2♠ bid.

 

If east has a more modest hand that raises to 3♥ and/or that suit breaks badly you could go for an unnecessary and large number.

[jogs]

(p)

1S-(2c)-3NT

 

What's the problem?

[P_Marlowe]

#1 not my style, but ..., you will find company

#2 sure, below a certain strength limit, otherwise you are looking for a 44 fit in hearts

#3 East? Who else stops their suit? (I am leaving xfer bid to NT out.)

#4 yes, he can bid 2S

#5 ...

1S (*) - (2C) - X - (Pass)

2S - (Pass) - 3NT (**) all Pass

 

(*) If you think it worth an opening bid

(**) I am not sure, 3NT is sensible, although seeing both hands, I wont bother checking,

I cannot check this at the table, but facing an opening East wants to play game.

If you open those hands, this is the price to pay.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: Even a pass by West wont really stop you from being in 3NT, West has an inv. hand, ...

and maybe due to MP scoring East will decline, but habing Ajx behind their clubs and knowing

the location of most of the missing HCP, there are ample reasons to go for it.

[jogs]

The bridge community overrates the 4-4 major suit fit. ♥Qxxx. Even if there is a 4-4 fit, the quality of the suit will be weak.

It is only best to be in a 4-4 fit game when the expected tricks are one full trick higher than being in 3NT.

This usually requires a singleton in one of the partnership hands.

Therefore this hand does qualify for not searching for the 4-4 fit.

[Winstonm]

1) Worth opening in a forcing club system. Dicey playing standard or 2/1.

2) Hands that are too weak to bid

3) 2H IMO should be 4 cards but nothing is forever: xxxxx, Kxx, AKQ, Jx I would bid 2H.

4) 1S-2c-X-p-2S-p-3n seems pretty standard. but if these kind of hands are routinely opened, 2N may be enough of a rebid.

[gszes]

1) Is the west hand worth an opening bid?

 

Just barely below my minimum but not much heartache when this is opened.

 

2) Is there such a thing as a hand with 4-4 in the reds that does not make a negative double after 1S(2C)?

YES BUT most of the hands that would not have 4+ support for openers major.

 

3) Who if anyone bids NT, and when? (On the actual deal, DeepFinesse says 2N makes but of course that's on a particular NS layout).

east should bid 2n on their 2nd round vs 4h. The main reason behind 2n is that when opening these kinds of hands you need to cater to the possibility opener might have significantly

less HCP and when there is no apparent fit it becomes tougher to make game. West will also know u have 4 hearts and can always convert back to 3h or 4h (if they have 4).

 

4) Does west's 2H call promise four hearts?

NO

 

5) What is a sane auction to a sane contract?

1s (2c) x (p) 2h (p) 2n all pass

[kenberg]

My own style is not to open the W hand. It's borderline, I don't go crazy if pard opens it, but I don't. If I am going t open an 11 count I want a better suit. Looking only at the EW cards suppose the bidding begins 1S-(Pass)-?. One way or another you will end in 3NT. Maybe 1S-3NT if this shows flatish and two spades, or maybe 1S-2D-2NT-3NT or 1S-2D-2S-2NT-3NT or maybe something else. Anyway you will be in 3NT. Not a great contract unless you have very good luck in developing the spades. The club bid by N on the actual hand improves the chances of 3NT coming in since no doubt the lie of the clubs produces two club tricks. That's the good news. Still.

 

Anyway, given a slight bit more or with better values in spades, changing the 8 to a T would do it, I would open 1S and rebid 2S over the negative double.

 

If players agree that the response to the negative double could sometimes be on three then I suppose that can work, but I prefer using the 2S rebid as a catchall and having 2H promise four. Seems simpler, if nothing else.

[sfi]

1) Is the west hand worth an opening bid?

2) Is there such a thing as a hand with 4-4 in the reds that does not make a negative double after 1S(2C)?

3) Who if anyone bids NT, and when? (On the actual deal, DeepFinesse says 2N makes but of course that's on a particular NS layout).

4) Does west's 2H call promise four hearts?

5) What is a sane auction to a sane contract?

 

1) Probably, with spades and a reasonable suit.

2) As long as you have enough to respond and don't have good support for partner's suit, no. The way I'm used to playing it, the double only shows 4H and says nothing about diamonds though.

3) East, after 2H. If the opening bid is in your agreed range, then you should probably choose 2NT.

4) No. If doubler has one call, I want to pick the most likely partscore.

5) 1S - (2C) - X - (P); 2H - (P) - 2NT - All pass

 

 

Edit: Looking at the responses after submitting this, it turns out I could have simply typed "what gszes said" for questions 2-5.

[rmnka447]

1) I would pass the West hand, though probably some would open it. My standard is normally 12 and 2 QTs or 11 with 2 1/2 QTs especially in 1st seat vulnerable. In 3rd seat, 1 ♠ would be OK especially if you play Drury.

2) If you are 4-4 in the reds, then a negative double is normally right. One rule of good bidding is normally not to suppress a major suit if you have one. Most bidding is pointed towards finding a major suit game on an 8+ card fit if it's there.

3) Just because you make a negative double, it doesn't mean you can't bid NT later in the auction.

4) Since responder didn't bid 2 ♥ over 2 ♣, either responder has a hand with 5+ ♥ that isn't strong enough to bid 2 ♥ or has only 4 ♥. So if opener is going to bid ♥, he/she must have four of them. Here, opener should rebid 2 ♠ which doesn't necessarily show 6. It's a default when opener can't bid one of responder's suits or bid NT.

5) Here is the auction that I'd expect given that West opens 1 ♠ --

 

1 ♠-(2♣)-Double - Pass

2 ♠-( P )-3NT-All pass

 

With 13 and a probable double stopper in ♣, I think 3 NT is right opposite an "opening" bid.

 

Once opener rebids 2 ♥, I think 4 ♥ by East is right.

[MrAce]

Oh man, it's been a while since I read result merchants.

2 NT with E hand...LOL. After 2♣ overcall and these spots there are still some who thinks E hand is worth 12 hcp when it's worth more than 14 hcp due to overcall. But what do I know! http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

[mr1303]

I'm sure that if I was pressed, I could come up with a 13 HCP that doesn't bid a game after partner opens, but this isn't one of them.

[sfi]

Oh man, it's been a while since I read result merchants.

2 NT with E hand...LOL. After 2♣ overcall and these spots there are still some who thinks E hand is worth 12 hcp when it's worth more than 14 hcp due to overcall. But what do I know! http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

 

It seems fairly normal to invite on the East hand if you open the West hand. Alternatively, if partner will force to game with that hand after an opening, maybe it's better to pass as dealer. Either works as long as the partnership is on the same page.

 

I prefer to open with West, so I invite with East. I'm not that crazy about stretching for low percentage games at mps. Not sure why this is resulting.

[MrAce]

It seems fairly normal to invite on the East hand if you open the West hand.

 

Sorry I disagree. People do not stop bidding games just because their pd can be 11 hcp. The reason to that is their pd will not reject the invitation with only 11 hcp. And this is coming from a man (me) who opens weak and who always invite with almost all 12 hcps as oppose to majority who prefer to bid game. This hand is much stronger than 12 hcp after the overcall in my evaluation. Your pd will never accept an invitation with KQJxx Axx Jxx xx

 

We can make a poll, stating that 1♠ is 11-21 hcp and give E hand in this auction, state that it is MP and no one will invite with this hand, unless of course they see the other hand as you guys did here.

You ask why this is resulting? Here is why this is resulting http://bridgewinners...m-2-3dvcqducd4/ Here it shows what people would actually bid had they not seen the W hand. http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

[sfi]

I'm not sure that saying "11-21" really captures the style that opens this hand. When I ask people about this, they typically have it because they don't want to get into trouble when opening an 11 count with a 6-card suit, or an interesting 5-4, or ...

 

Would all the people replying to this poll expect partner to open this hand? My real point is that I don't see this as a "standard" opening if you want to conduct a constructive auction. I, and most of my regular partners, will open this anyway. But this affects our invites as well as what we will accept game on as opener.

 

If you don't make the adjustment somehow, you wind up in too many silly 3NT contracts. As on the hand in the original post.

 

Mind you, at IMPs I am getting to 3NT on these hands. There overbidding pays off better.

[MrAce]

I'm not sure that saying "11-21" really captures the style that opens this hand. When I ask people about this, they typically have it because they don't want to get into trouble when opening an 11 count with a 6-card suit, or an interesting 5-4, or ...

 

Would all the people replying to this poll expect partner to open this hand? My real point is that I don't see this as a "standard" opening if you want to conduct a constructive auction. I, and most of my regular partners, will open this anyway. But this affects our invites as well as what we will accept game on as opener.

 

If you don't make the adjustment somehow, you wind up in too many silly 3NT contracts. As on the hand in the original post.

 

Mind you, at IMPs I am getting to 3NT on these hands. There overbidding pays off better.

To me 11 means 11. You could have a valid point if I said something like "good 11 to 21". I did not say that. All I said was it shows 5+ ♠ and 11-21 hcp.

 

Another important thing, why do you think they open all flat 11 hcps systematically anyway? We do not know that. In fact the way OP asking us whether West hand is worth opening or not implies that they do not have such an agreement.

You just looked at W hand and decided that this hand is in their system agreements. This is only your conclusion. If that was true I do not think OP would ask us whether W hand should open or not.

 

This is why I think you guys are resulting. And now you are complaining as if I skipped a known fact about the opening agreement. No we do not know it. OP himself do not know it, did not mention anything about it, how could we?

 

Do you want me to talk people into bidding 2 NT? I will not do it for you. Sorry I just will give it to them as the way it actually is. In fact, stating 11-21 is something for your benefit because there are a lot of people who would not open with 11 hcp. To them it is good 12 to 21.

[nullve]

[hv=pc=n&w=skj986ha75dk6c743&e=s53hq632daqt9caj5&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=p1s2cdp2hp4hppp]266|200[/hv]

 

Matchpoint scoring.

 

OK, so this is not going to be a great success. Among the questions that came up in the subsequent discussion:

1) Is the west hand worth an opening bid?

2) Is there such a thing as a hand with 4-4 in the reds that does not make a negative double after 1S(2C)?

3) Who if anyone bids NT, and when? (On the actual deal, DeepFinesse says 2N makes but of course that's on a particular NS layout).

4) Does west's 2H call promise four hearts?

5) What is a sane auction to a sane contract?

1) Depends on agreements (duh!), but it doesn't meet the rule of 20, so I don't think it's a book opening bid in standard 2/1. But then "book" 2/1 may be a bit too conservative for most tournament players.

2) Responder has to pass on very weak hands, obviously. And it seems a bit silly to double with, say, 9 hcp, 1444 if Opener is expected to rebid 2♠ with 12-14, 5S(332). (But I've seen it on Vugraph!)

3) If 1♠ is the correct opening bid with (11)12-14 hcp, 5S(332) [not necessarily true in systems where 1♣ is "natural or balanced", for instance], then a decision has to be made (once and for all) whether Opener should rebid a) 2red or b) 2♠ with that hand type. If a), then I think Responder has to play Opener for 4 hearts anyway, so I don't really see how 4♥ can be avoided. If b), then I guess Responder will suggest 3N over 2♠.

4),5) See 3).

[Kaitlyn S]

I play that the negative double always has four hearts, so I would bid 3NT over West's (correct IMO) 2H bid.

 

If you don't play that the negative double guarantees four hearts, there is still no problem because you only wouldn't have four hearts when you have a problem; in this auction you show you didn't have a problem, you could have always just bid 3NT without four hearts so a 3NT bid after opener's 2H rebid promises four hearts for anybody.

 

And yes, 3NT is on thin values but it's because West opened a hair light, but it's better than 4H.

[nullve]

If you don't play that the negative double guarantees four hearts, there is still no problem because you only wouldn't have four hearts when you have a problem; in this auction you show you didn't have a problem, you could have always just bid 3NT without four hearts so a 3NT bid after opener's 2H rebid promises four hearts for anybody.

You're right.

 

If a), then I think Responder has to play Opener for 4 hearts anyway, so I don't really see how 4♥ can be avoided.

Stupid.