Escape from weak 1NT doubled

[Vampyr]

Do not forget that some people can play in 1NTx and 1NTxx.

 

Weak NT can be very effective at IMPs. In 1st 2nd and 4th anyway.

[nekthen]

imo any method that doesnt allow you to play 1Nx is truly terrible, other than that it doesn't really matter :)

 

You can play 1Nxx though

[PrecisionL]

1489443270[/url]' post='916929']

You can play 1Nxx though

 

Years ago, we gave up the XX when twice in two weeks we were -400 on a partial only hand.

[nige1]

Janet (Just another notrump escape technique) not as complex as it appears:

When escaping, we try to reach 2♥ or 2♠, because it's harder for an opponent to double 2M.

 

After 1N (X) ??

• P = NAT. (But if he feels like it, opener can redouble with a 5-card suit. Responder can pass this redouble or bid 2♣ (Pass/correct).
• XX = ART. SOS. Two 4+ suits.
• 2♣/♦/♥/♠ = NAT. 5+ suit. (Alternatively a TFR, with a very weak hand: in which case, responder will redouble if an opponent doubles).

After 1N (X) XX (P); ??

• 2♣ = ART. denies 5 cards in another suit.
• 2♦/♥/♠ = NAT. 5+ cards.

After 1N (X) XX (P); 2♣ (X) ??

or after 1N (X) XX (P); 2♣ (P) P (X); P (P) ??

• P = NAT. 4+ ♣s & 4+ of another suit.
• XX = ART. 4+ ♦s & 4+ ♥s (REDouble = REDs).
• 2♦ = NAT. 4+ ♦s & 4+ ♠s.
• 2♥ = NAT. 4+ ♥s & 4+ ♠s.

Exactly the same, after 1N (X) XX (P); 2♣ (X) P (P); ??

or after 1N (X) XX (P); 2♣ (P) P (X); ??

• P = NAT. 3+ ♣s.
• XX = ART. 4+ ♦s & 4+ ♥s (REDouble = REDs).
• 2♦ = NAT. 4+ ♦s & 4+ ♠s.
• 2♥ = NAT. 4+ ♥s & 4+ ♠s.

(This works when opener has 2♣s and no 5-card suit. Because, then he must have two 4-card suits).

 

I originally wrote that these calls are alertable. Paul G points out that EBU regulations say that most of them do not require an alert.

Edited July 28, 2017 by nige1

[rmnka447]

I also think exit transfer are OK to play.

 

Then pass either denies a 5 card suit or a willingness to play 1 NT doubled. 1 NT opener can then bid his/her 5 card suit or Redouble. If opener redoubles, then responder with a runout hand bids the lowest 4 card suit. If responder has the hand that is willing to sit for 1 NTx, then responder passes the redouble.

 

Occasionally, if responder passes the redouble you might go for a number, but quite often the stronger that doubler is, doubler's partner is weak and under tremendous pressure to pull out of 1 NTxx.

[msjennifer]

Thanks everyone.

Just one further question - what if responder is 4333? The usual guideline is:

If the holding is 4-3-3-3, most partnerships treat the holding as two-suited.

Not sure what that means but I am guessing that if the 4 card suit is a major then you start with your better 3 card minor?

With any 4/3/3/3 hand,when playing Wriggling convention ,the bid is PASS.This alerts the opener that the responder has either 1) a 4/3/3/3 hand or 2) a hand with which he normally would have redoubled.He then takes appropriate action as described by me in my previous post.

[Vampyr]

You can play 1Nxx though

 

LOL

[gwnn]

Transfers are not bad imo (whoever is under the doubler transfers, their partner bids naturally), but natural is also pretty good. Remember to agree 2NT=strong unspecified hand, or have some agreement about the exact meaning (maybe if you play transfers already, it can be minors, or some kinda two-suiter). Also remember to jump to the 3/4 level with a hand suitable for a preempt as they are not only looking to punish you but also often need to find their fit.

 

Anyway if you do play weak NT, it's pretty important to know what bids mean as 1NT-x-?? will come up all the time. Also be sure to make clear that all of these apply over any kind of x, whatever it means. Sometimes opps will give confusing answers to "what is double here?" and it gets very awkward very quickly to sort it all out.

[NickRW]

Of course, there is also a completely natural system:

 

Pass = to play

XX = to play

2x = to play

 

And opener, after pass or XX, 2m = I took a flier (possibly even psyched) with a long minor and prefer to play here

 

There is a lot to be said for simplicity.

[GrahamJson]

Nick's system is my preference with the one addition that if responder takes out and subsequently redoubles it is SOS. The problem with most other systems is that you can often end up one level higher in a 43 fit, which may not generate an extra trick, let alone two.

[Vampyr]

Nick's system is my preference with the one addition that if responder takes out and subsequently redoubles it is SOS. The problem with most other systems is that you can often end up one level higher in a 43 fit, which may not generate an extra trick, let alone two.

 

This is what I play, with the addition that if the double is in the protective seat opener and responder can each XX showing majors or minors.

[Vampyr]

I also think exit transfer are OK to play.

 

Then pass either denies a 5 card suit or a willingness to play 1 NT doubled. 1 NT opener can then bid his/her 5 card suit or Redouble. If opener redoubles, then responder with a runout hand bids the lowest 4 card suit. If responder has the hand that is willing to sit for 1 NTx, then responder passes the redouble.

 

Occasionally, if responder passes the redouble you might go for a number, but quite often the stronger that doubler is, doubler's partner is weak and under tremendous pressure to pull out of 1 NTxx.

 

Why would opener redouble?

[Liversidge]

Why would opener redouble?

As I understand it, when responder passes the double, opener does not know whether the pass shows a willingness to play in 1NT X or whether responder is weak with no 5 card suit. Opener redoubles so that responder has another bid and can clarify his position by passing or bidding his lower ranking 4 card suit.

[rmnka447]

Why would opener redouble?

If opener rebids a suit, it shows 5 cards. If opener is willing to sit for 1 NTx, then opener passes understanding that responder could be passing on very little. A redouble suggests 1 NTx might not be the best place to play. If responder is willing to sit for the redouble, then responder passes. If not responder bids his/her lowest 4 card suit.

[gwnn]

As I understand it, when responder passes the double, opener does not know whether the pass shows a willingness to play in 1NT X or whether responder is weak with no 5 card suit. Opener redoubles so that responder has another bid and can clarify his position by passing or bidding his lower ranking 4 card suit.

Sometimes responder also doesn't know whether or not he has a willingness to play 1NTx or whether it's the least of all evils. That's when he passes and opener should respect that :)

[Liversidge]

Sometimes responder also doesn't know whether or not he has a willingness to play 1NTx or whether it's the least of all evils. That's when he passes and opener should respect that :)

When playing Exit Transfers my understanding is that the redouble is mandatory. Responder may know exactly what he is going to do after the redouble, and opener should not try to second-guess him.

 

I am not trying to defend Exit Transfers - after the above comments I am giving it up, and with it the XX.

[gwnn]

When playing Exit Transfers my understanding is that the redouble is mandatory. Responder may know exactly what he is going to do after the redouble, and opener should not try to second-guess him.

 

I am not trying to defend Exit Transfers - after the above comments I am giving it up, and with it the XX.

Oh yea sorry I thought you were making a generic point about pass possibly being a weak 4432/4333 in natural methods since your post applied quite well for that case too.

 

Just to clarify what I meant by transfers, they're easier:

1NT-x-?

pass = offer to play

xx = clubs

2♣ = diamonds

2♦ = hearts

2♥ = spades

2♠ = some strong hand I guess?

2NT = some strong hand I guess?

jumps = natural preempts

 

I guess you could play cheap transfer + bid a suit as a canape two-suiter (in case we have a 5-4 fit or something) but I never thought about this...

 

1NT-x-p-p

?

natural bids with 5-6 card suits by opener (doubler will be on lead)

 

1NT-p-p-x

transfers (doubler will be on lead)

 

1NT-p-p-x

p-p-?

natural (doubler will be on lead)

 

I never had good experience with running with 4432's (we "find" a 4-3 on the 3 level sometimes), although to be fair, I never had too much good experience with sitting either (usually we miss some juicy 44/54 fit and opps asked "huh these dudes don't play runouts?)!

[m1cha]

imo any method that doesnt allow you to play 1Nx is truly terrible, other than that it doesn't really matter :)

How about playing 1NTxx instead?

 

With one partner I was playing a mini 1NT for years. We used the following escape system which we developed to minimize the possibility of playing in a misfit. It's also quite easy to memorize:

 

1. XX with any weak 5-card suit, opener bids 2♣ to pass or correct;
2. 2(any) is 4-4+ in that suit and ♠ except that 2♣ can also be any 4333
   (The advantage over some other systems is that opener can choose to play in ♠ - which can be important if you play matchpoints or want to snatch the contract from the opponents.);
3. pass is forcing, opener must redouble! After that, from responder

• 2♣ is clubs and a red suit 4-4+;
• 2♦ is both red suits 4-4+;
• 2♥/2♠ is invitational in that suit (preferaby used if opps interfere again);
• pass means you want to play a full game on the 1 level.

With 5-4 you bid 4-4 or the 5-card suit depending on the suits and their qualities.

 

To be fair, playing 1NTxx instead of 1NTx has a down side: Since it's a full game, opps usually run ...

[Vampyr]

How about playing 1NTxx instead?

 

....

 

To be fair, playing 1NTxx instead of 1NTx has a down side: Since it's a full game, opps usually run ...

 

Yeah, the undertricks are pretty expensive too.

[m1cha]

The problem with most other systems is that you can often end up one level higher in a 43 fit, which may not generate an extra trick, let alone two.

True. But it may. And if not, it may not matter because your opponents will find it hard to double your 2-in-a-suit because they don't know if you are playing in a 4-3-, 4-4-, or 4-5-fit.

[m1cha]

Yeah, the undertricks are pretty expensive too.

Undertricks? Which undertricks? ;)

 

Well, sh** happens, of course, but you run when you're weak and you don't play redoubled unless you are sure you have at least 20 HCP. And if the opponents want to know, they also get this information, and that's why they run. While undertricks can certainly happen, they're not what we worry about.

[Zelandakh]

My recommendation for N/B/I that want to move beyond natural takeouts would be Moscow escapes, which are basically what Nick describes - system on (Stayman, red suit transfers) with XX escaping to a minor (or possibly both majors).

 

imo any method that doesnt allow you to play 1Nx is truly terrible, other than that it doesn't really matter :)

I disagree quite strongly with this. My experience has been that you break even often enough on the 7 card fits playing 1 trick better that the ability to find the better fit ends up being much better overall than the ability to reside in 1NTX on marginal and flat hands.

 

Just one further question - what if responder is 4333? The usual guideline is:

If the holding is 4-3-3-3, most partnerships treat the holding as two-suited.

Not sure what that means but I am guessing that if the 4 card suit is a major then you start with your better 3 card minor?

I use a fairly complicated runout system (based on Spelvic) in which I specifically define how to deal with 4333 hands. Basically the rule I use is to pretend you have a club more and redouble if it comes back to you in 2♣X. The long form is this:-

 

1NT - (X)

==

P = forces XX

... - XX = forced

... - ... - 2♣ = ♣ and a red suit or 3(34)3

... - ... - 2♦ = ♦ + ♥

... - ... - 2♥ = ♥ + ♠ (longer ♥)

... - ... - 2♠+ = freak 2-suiters

XX = forces 2♣

... - 2♣ = forced, one-suited or 3334

... - ... - P = to play

2♣ = ♣ + ♠ or 4333

2♦ = ♦ + ♠

2♥ = ♥ + ♠ (equal/longer ♠)

2♠ = natural, willing to be raised (effectively preemptive)

2NT = ♣ + ♦ (at least 5-5)

 

The 4333 sequences are then:

 

4♠333: 1NT - (X) - 2♣ - (X); P - (P) - XX and 1NT - (X) - 2♣ - (P); P - (X) - XX

4red333: 1NT - (X) - P - (P); XX - (P) - 2♣ - (X); P - (P) - XX and 1NT - (X) - P - (P); XX - (P) - 2♣ - (P); P - (X) - XX

4♣333: 1NT - (X) - XX - (P); 2♣ - (X) - XX and 1NT - (X) - XX - (P); 2♣ - (P) - P - (X); P - (P) - XX

 

What this gives up is the SOS redouble but this method has an alternative way of handling 3-suiters, so the trade-off is worth it. It is not a method I would recommend for N/B though. Nor is it a method I think anyone that has played it would describe as "terrible". :) B-)

[gwnn]

fred and some other very strong players (sorry weasel word but I can't remember who it was, although I seem to remember Frances was one of them) have also come out in favour of 1NT-x-pass showing an offer to play 1NTx. I don't have extensive experience but I would trust their judgement.

 

edit: awm wrote a very good case against 1NT-x-p forcing redouble and fred and Frances indeed posted in that thread. (ignore my post there, it's rubbish)

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/17848-weak-nt/page__view__findpost__p__174856

edit2: Frances making a similary very good case against 1NT-x-p forcing redouble here:

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/19748-escape-structure-after-1nt-x/page__p__199178__hl__runout__fromsearch__1#entry199178

[benlessard]

At N/B level it doenst matter that much but at stronger level you will want to be able to play 1NTx and avoid transfers.

 

I think whats best is simply

 

Pass= pts or 4333

XX= sos at least 44

2Y= to play

 

opener can XX in balancing seat with a 5 card suit, if your pass was any 4333 you bid 2C and if your pass was pts you convert.

 

Since you dont use artificial bid (other than the XX) its tougher for LHO to show values or setup forcing pass.

[helene_t]

XX= sos at least 44

DONT (or whatever the politically correct term for it is) is better since if it goes, with your methods,

xx-2♦

2♥

and opener is 4333 he can't correct to spades as responder might not have spades. So we miss the spades fit.

 

Conversely, playing DONT(?), if it goes

2♦-2♥

responder knows that he can correct to 2♠ since opener is asking him to do that and would have passed 2♦ if he had a doubleton spades (this all assumes that opener doesn't have two doubletons. I think this is true for most English club players, and almost true for the rest)