next bid pease

[appelflapj]

you have A10964, AKQ86, 54, 2. playing teams

 

p opens a weak 12 - 14 no trump and the opps are silent.

you transfer to spades , partner accepts, and you bid 3 hearts promising 5 spades and 4 hearts and a gf hand.

 

partner gives preference to 3 spades.

 

what do you bid now? tx for the replies

[helene_t]

4♥, if p might take preference on 23(35) with a weak three-card in a minor suit.

 

If that's not the case, or if p might take 4♥ as a cuebid, I just bid 4♠.

[ggwhiz]

Stayman would work better as imo, you have slam aspirations opposite a 4 card major (splinter over that?) and as long as you play it bid 4♦ over anything else to show 5-5 in the majors and have partner pick hearts with 2-3 in them.

 

In your auction I think 4♥ is enough and won't be surprised to miss a slam but without a 9 card trump fit it feels like 50-50 at best and you don't even have a guarantee of an 8 card fit yet.

[Cyberyeti]

I would bid 4♥ showing 5-5 and a mild slam try by our methods.

 

It's useful to play one of the 4m bids as 5-5 majors to play 4M or definitely moving on, so the slow sequence is a milder slam try.

 

Another vaguely useful arrangement is to agree that you bid this hand type 1N-2♦-2♥-2♠-any-3♠.

[eagles123]

I agree with gg - start with stayman

[rmnka447]

I'm also with bidding 4 ♥ to pattern out your hand. If game was your only objective, you could have just bid 4 ♠. So, 4 ♥ has to be a mild slam try.

 

4 ♥ also helps partner reevaluate their hand. If partner holds something like ♠ Kxx ♥ xx ♦ KQJx ♣ KQxx, they'll settle for 4 ♠. But something like ♠ KQx ♥ xx ♦ Axxx ♣ Axxx gets a lot better. With first hand, the values are wrongly located opposite a major 5-5 two suiter. With the second, partner can start to visualize 12 tricks opposite a decent 5-5 hand.

[Cyberyeti]

I'm also with bidding 4 ♥ to pattern out your hand. If game was your only objective, you could have just bid 4 ♠. So, 4 ♥ has to be a mild slam try.

 

4 ♥ also helps partner reevaluate their hand. If partner holds something like ♠ Kxx ♥ xx ♦ KQJx ♣ KQxx, they'll settle for 4 ♠. But something like ♠ KQx ♥ xx ♦ Axxx ♣ Axxx gets a lot better. With first hand, the values are wrongly located opposite a major 5-5 two suiter. With the second, partner can start to visualize 12 tricks opposite a decent 5-5 hand.

 

There are plenty of hands where partner is 3-3 in the majors or has KQ/(xxx/Jxx) and it plays better in hearts when the spades misbehave

[MrAce]

I agree with gg - start with stayman

 

It is tricky. You start stayman and pd bids 2♥ with

 

A- Qxx Jxxx AKx Axx

 

B-KQx xxxx Axx Kxx

 

Say you splintered with original hand as gg suggested (which imo is an awful idea), you will probably get to slam with hand A and not with B.

[silvr bull]

My system preference is two way Stayman (instead of transfers) over 1NT, so 2D (by an unpassed hand) would be game force Stayman. That treatment makes slam tries easier, especially in minor suits. If opener bids 2M, then a raise to 3M would be a mild slam try that invites opener to que if interested. If opener does not have a 4 card major, then I will bid 3S followed by 4H, and hope he does not have the dreaded 2=2=4=5 shape.

[gszes]

One thing to remember is that 3s is STRONGER than 4s since we are in a GF auction. IHMO the 3s bid should show a hand rich in aces and major suit honors even if near bottom of hand. the reason for this is we have already established a GF and strain so the next question is slam or no slam. The opening bidder takes advantage of the extra space to show a hand appropriate for slam. A small extension of this thinking means the opening bidder can now bid 4c or 4d to show a concentration of values in the majors and the bid minor (nothing of value in the other minor) in case responder has slam aspirations. While this extension does not settle strain responder merely chooses hearts at the appropriate level (POC) and opener passes or corrects to spades. Kxxx Qx Axxx Axx (is a great 3s bid) Kxxx Qxx AK xxxx (is a great 4d bid).

[nige1]

you have A10964, AKQ86, 54, 2. playing teams

p opens a weak 12 - 14 no trump and the opps are silent.

you transfer to spades , partner accepts, and you bid 3 hearts promising 5 spades and 4 hearts and a gf hand.

partner gives preference to 3 spades.

what do you bid now? tx for the replies

I rank

1. 4♠ = NAT. No more info for defenders. Partner evinced no slam interest.
2. 4♥ = NAT or CUE. Slam might make if partner has perfect cards. 4♥ might be safer than 4♠.
3. 4♣ = CUE.

[ggwhiz]

It is tricky. You start stayman and pd bids 2♥ with

 

 

Say you splintered with original hand as gg suggested (which imo is an awful idea),

 

Actually I don't even play splinters but was guessing that those that do seem to be in love with them.

 

What I do play is the impossible major. After stayman gets a major suit response, 2♥ then 3♠ or 2♠ then 3♥ are artificial (no transfer so natural makes no sense), confirm a fit, a serious or mild slam try and demand a cue bid next. We also have to go through this route to confirm trumps and turn 4nt at a later turn into rkc instead of quantitative.

 

There is enough cueing room to handle every hand I've encountered so far and I've never had an issue with danger when it dies at the 5 level. I just don't have slam ambitions on the posted hand without a 9 card trump fit.

[appelflapj]

Actually I don't even play splinters but was guessing that those that do seem to be in love with them.

 

What I do play is the impossible major. After stayman gets a major suit response, 2♥ then 3♠ or 2♠ then 3♥ are artificial (no transfer so natural makes no sense), confirm a fit, a serious or mild slam try and demand a cue bid next. We also have to go through this route to confirm trumps and turn 4nt at a later turn into rkc instead of quantitative.

 

There is enough cueing room to handle every hand I've encountered so far and I've never had an issue with danger when it dies at the 5 level. I just don't have slam ambitions on the posted hand without a 9 card trump fit.

[appelflapj]

tx for all the answers. nice to see all the forum regulars contributing their view.

 

the opposite hand was qxx, jxx, aqxxx, ax. this was held by me who took 4 hearts as a slamtry.

 

i asked aces and parked the hand in slam. as i now read the comments i realize that this was a little on the optimistic side.

 

the spades behaved for one loser but the diamond king was of, so one down.

 

the solution is probably to have a bid which differentiates between a mild and a serious slamtry with both majors as the posters suggested.

[jogs]

I'm also with bidding 4 ♥ to pattern out your hand. If game was your only objective, you could have just bid 4 ♠. So, 4 ♥ has to be a mild slam try.

 

4 ♥ also helps partner reevaluate their hand. If partner holds something like ♠ Kxx ♥ xx ♦ KQJx ♣ KQxx, they'll settle for 4 ♠.

What if pd holds ♠ Kx ♥ xxx ♦ KQJx ♣ KQxx, would a pass of 4♥ be obvious.

[rmnka447]

What if pd holds ♠ Kx ♥ xxx ♦ KQJx ♣ KQxx, would a pass of 4♥ be obvious.

How much value are the 11 of 14 HCP held when they are in suits partner holds at most 3 cards in? The points aren't "working" because they're wrongly placed. This hand got worse by partner bidding 4 ♥. For slam to be right, partner has to have a 1st round minor control, all the top ♥s, and a ♠ holding allowing ♠ to be set up. That's a lot to ask of a "mild" slam try.

 

But, after partner bids 3 ♥, the right rebid with this hand is 3 NT rather than 3 ♠. Now 4 ♥ becomes simply a choice of games rather than a slam try. The thing that makes 4 ♥ a slam try is opener's 3 ♠ rebid which implies a ♠ fit (usually 3+).

[xavierf]

1SA - 2H - 2S - 3H would in our methods be 5-5 invite.

1SA - 2K - 2R - 4m would be 5MM sleminvite, short in m.

What's the best way to make difference between mild and serious slamtry in this method?

 

We also play 1SA - 3D for the MM, now only for GF hands, maybe we can put there the serious slamtry?

[apollo1201]

FWIW, I never transfer w/ 5-4 if invitational+. From weakest to strongest, here is the way I bid 5-5:

- the ugly: transfer to S and pass unless opps balance

- the "game if you have the miracle hand": transfer to H, then 2S

- the "game, period": 4D

- the mild slam try: transfer to S then 4H (slam if p has no wasted minor HCPs and good fitting major HCPs)

- the seriously disappointed if we don't go to slam: transfer to S then 3H

 

Facing a weak NT, OP's hand is a mild slam try.

[miamijd]

Over 1NT (regardless of range), you need a way to show 55 in the majors with a game force hand. That sort of hand comes up often enough to merit some sort of treatment for it.

 

Your treatment of transferring followed by bidding 3H as showing 54 in the majors seems very wrong. With a 54 game force, you can use Stayman followed by Smolen (over 2D, you jump in the four-card suit). So at the very least, transferring to spades and then bidding 3H could be used to show 55.

 

If you used that treatment, then opener could bid (1) 3S as encouraging in spades; (2) 3NT with a 2245 or 2254 hand where he opened 1NT; (2) 4C and 4D as encouraging in hearts; and (3) 4H and 4S as signoffs.

 

Here, opener doesn't have a bad hand at all opposite 55 gf. Sure, the Qd would be better if it were the Ks, but other than that, every card is working. So the auction would likely go:

 

1NT 2H

2S 3H

3S 3NT(1)

4C(2) 4H(3)

4S(4) pass

(1) serious slam try, but no minor ace or king

(2) club control

(3) 2-3 diamonds (else would cue 4D); Last Train

(4) can't do any more

 

Another possibility for showing 55 is to use 3H as 55 invite and 3S as 55 game force or better.

 

Cheers,

mike

[appelflapj]

tx for the replies. all very usefull.

 

 

i think best for us is what mike and others suggested in the above posts.

will take it up with my partner. as the bidding went at our table i think we had insufficient tools to bid these hands with any kind of certainty.

[Zelandakh]

p opens a weak 12 - 14 no trump and the opps are silent.

you transfer to spades , partner accepts, and you bid 3 hearts promising 5 spades and 4 hearts and a gf hand.

If this sequence shows a 5-4 hand, what would 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 3M have shown? I think you should perhaps explain how your NT system works before anyone can really give good advice here, notwithstanding that some have already tried. For the majority of players using transfers, the sequence you used already shows a 5-5 hand of some strength. it is not impossible to use a transfer and new suit this way but if you do then you typically have to match that with an alternative gadget for the 5-5 majors GF hand, such as 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 3♦. That, of course, has other knock-on effects. NT systems tend to hand together in a tight dance so you just have to know how your method handles a 5-5 majors GF hand. It does not matter so much what that is so much as that it exists.

 

As for what to bid over 3♠, again that is highly system dependent. Some will play Serious 3NT here, others Frivolous 3NT and others neither of these. As you can see from the replies, some play 4♥ here as natural and for others it is a control bid of some sort; Nige seems to play it 2-way, which is to my mind almost unworkable. To write that "4♥ has to be a mild slam try" is, quite frankly, ridiculous as well as misleading.

 

Finally, here is a popular ladder for 5-5 major hands over a 1NT opening in North America:

 

weak: 2♣, then 2♥ if partner rebids 2♦

INV: 2♦, then 2♠ over 2♥

GF: 2♥, then 3♥ over 2♠

 

I personally play something completely different to this but the above is probably the easiest stand-by if playing with a pick-up partner or just wanting a basic system for general play.