More 5 over 5

[el mister]

Picked this fine collection up last night at the club. MPs, playing 2/1.

[hv=pc=n&s=s86532hd765c86543&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=p1s2s4s5hdp]133|200[/hv]

 

Are you sitting in, or getting to your feet and throwing down 5 spades? Is it a close decision?

[helene_t]

I think I will pass. Partner's double is penalty when I have preempted. This doesn't mean that pass has to be right since you can't blame partner for speculating on half a defensive trick by you. But it does mean that partner could have four tricks in his own hand, and besides, he can see the vulnerability also so if he can make 11 tricks with this little in dummy he would probably have bid it himself.

[eagles123]

if we're not happy passing here we shouldn't have bid 4s last time imo

[Tramticket]

if we're not happy passing here we shouldn't have bid 4s last time imo

 

I agree with this.

 

In fact I think it would have been better not to bid 4S last time (at match points).

[helene_t]

if we're not happy passing here we shouldn't have bid 4s last time imo

So should we have passed? If so should we then bid 4♠ over 4♥? And if so, would we be in a better situation once partner doubles their 5♥ and it comes back to us at our third turn, rather than our second turn?

[mycroft]

29. At matchpoints, never pull partner's penalty double to a minus score.

-- Jeff Goldsmith, Imperious Rules of Bridge.

 

I know some of them are "ha ha only serious", and some are "ha ha only joking", but if it's in that list, it's really worth at least thinking about before deciding it's advice you're not going to take ("55. Hartman's Law: 4D doubled always makes. Jeff's corollary: all doubles of 4D are takeout."; "23. If something strange is going on, double the Israeli." for instance).

 

Here, the worst that can happen is they make it, and you'll probably share the bottom with a few people. If you pull, the worst that can happen is that they were going down, and your partner now knows that you're not going to allow her to make decisions with the strong hand.

 

One of my Imperious Rules is "when in doubt, make the call that won't lose the post-mortem." I'm in doubt here - I basically have my call; sure I have half-a-trick less than partner could expect, and they have one more heart than partner expects, but I Have My Call. So, "when you've preempted, shut up." applies. Sure, in my partnerships, I would double 5♥ in direct with this hand, saying "partner, I want to sacrifice"; but the reason I play that is so that the strong hand can say "well, I don't." And the strong hand has spoken.

[mycroft]

Helene, I think what Eagles means is "if I'm not going to be happy passing 5♥, doubled by partner, I should have bid *5♠* last time, not 4."

[broze]

Pass - not close. I hope this is not one of those partners who loves to shoot at MPs.

[eagles123]

So should we have passed? If so should we then bid 4♠ over 4♥? And if so, would we be in a better situation once partner doubles their 5♥ and it comes back to us at our third turn, rather than our second turn?

 

no i would bid 4s also, but for sure we have to pass now. Of course this can make for a bad board, but I'd rather one bad board and keep partners trust than risk totally ruining partnership confidence which imo pulling this would do.

[neilkaz]

This certainly the wrong vul to basically pull my PD's penalty double to a 5♠ sac. OK so PD's x shows a good hand, but can I really expect 5♠ to be a fave to make?

[ggwhiz]

Passing when it's wrong will be understood by partner but pulling when it's wrong (them going down OR us down 2 smashed) gets the stink eye and is actually very insulting to them.

[rmnka447]

Pass.

 

Partner might be a tad disappointed with what you bid on, but certainly knows that you don't have much. Partner made a decision and penalty doubled. You might come under some criticism if it fails, but that would be nothing like what you would hear if 5 ♥X goes down and 5 ♠ doesn't make.

 

Don't try to "save" partner. Players who do so usually end up snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

 

That applies here and also when partner does something highly unusual. Often when partner does something like that there's a good reason for doing it.

[Kaitlyn S]

Add me to the long list of passers.

[msjennifer]

This depends upon ones partnership agreements. With adverse vulnerability and playing a standard system the range of 1 S opening is very wide.However,by doubling 5H bid opener, as per my contention,has three defensive tricks outside spades.The double if made by a sane partner tells responder NOT to bid 5 Spade.I shall hence,pass without a quiver.since I have not guaranteed even one single defence trick.With only 2 outside defence tricks he will ,or rather should, pass.Doesn't one open with Jxxxx-Ax-Axx-Axx or similar?

[GrahamJson]

Please save me from partner's who would even consider removing the double. If 5H makes, unlucky, but in such cases 5S is probably going down plenty.

[acfromatl]

Pass. I would have bid 5 spades as my first bid, but partner should not expect a trick from a preempter.

[RD350LC]

I have two comments.

First of all, I agree completely with the 4S bid. Law of total tricks indicates bidding to the total number of trumps held by our side.

Secondly, I would PASS. NEVER repeat a pre-empt. Yes, you are void in trumps, and cannot provide a defensive trick, but it is not for you to say. It is partner's party, and you have to go along with his decision.

[palustris1]

I pass OR I should begin to look after a new partner. If i cannot trust him, no need to go on with him. The double is penalty, not optional penalty.

If you are not ok with your 4S bid, don't make it. An important point here is to discuss with partner the exact meaning of 4S. That hand is a possible hand for the bid ? Yes, so you pass. No, you don't make it. Easy ?

[Joe_Old]

Pass.

 

Since the 4♠ bid is purely pre-emptive, you have nothing more to say. Partner knows that he cannot count on any ♠ tricks, so he must have 3+ defensive tricks outside.

 

The usual reason to consider pulling a penalty double is when you have taken an ambiguous call, and your hand is purely offensive in nature. Then, partner might double expecting defensive values that you don't have. Say that you are 6-6 and have identified a double fit; your bids in a competitive auction promise offensive tricks, but it is not clearcut that you mean shape, not HCP. Then you consider pulling the double because you expect the opponents to run the other two suits and/or cross ruff your suits.

[PhilG007]

Picked this fine collection up last night at the club. MPs, playing 2/1.

[hv=pc=n&s=s86532hd765c86543&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=p1s2s4s5hdp]133|200[/hv]

 

Are you sitting in, or getting to your feet and throwing down 5 spades? Is it a close decision?

There is a strong temptation to pull the double but in this case it should be resisted.

Partner has doubled after a competitive auction sending the message"They can't make it",and partner,however suspect, must be trusted.

You are going to look pretty foolish if 5[♠is failing(probably doubled) when 5♥

is also failing. The effect of removing the double is equivilant to you saying "I saw your double partner

but you're a liar and I don't trust you!" Pass with gritted teeth and pray that partners double was justified

[eagles123]

There is a strong temptation to pull the double but in this case it should be resisted.

Partner has doubled after a competitive auction sending the message"They can't make it",and partner,however suspect, must be trusted.

You are going to look pretty foolish if 5[♠is failing(probably doubled) when 5♥

is also failing. The effect of removing the double is equivilant to you saying "I saw your double partner

but you're a liar and I don't trust you!" Pass with gritted teeth and pray that partners double was justified

 

no there isn't