How to bid this one?

[xx1943]

Hi all

 

My pd and I had a big desaster in an important team-event.

 

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=saq10982hk42dj2c87&s=sk4haqj103dakq3c32]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

Bidding went:

1 ♥ --- 1 ♠ ---

3 ♦ --- 3 ♥ ---

3 ♠ --- 4 NT --

5 ♣ --- 6 ♥ ---

 

RKCB 3140 5♣ showing 1 or 3 Keys

 

Please tell me your opinions:

 

1) Do you like the 3♠ bid? My consideration was that I would like better to play in the spade 5/2 than in the heart 5/2-fit.

 

2) Does 3♠ show a club-singleton?

 

3) Which suit is fixed after 3♠? Hearts or spades or none?

 

4) What do you think of North bidding 5♥ instead of 4NT, pointing on the weakness in Clubs?

 

5) How do you give the blame for this hand to N and S?

 

Regards

 

Al

[mcphee]

Not sure I would even bid 1S but would raise to 2H. While 3S generally would indicate 3 trumps I do not think this is a poor bid, lots easier if S have never been mentioned. It's easy to see why N felt S had short C when N bid 3S. N is able however to bid 5H searching for C control, 4N is a poor choice.

[inquiry]

Hi all

 

My pd and I had a big desaster in an important team-event.

 

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=saq10982hk42dj2c87&s=sk4haqj103dakq3c32]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

Bidding went:

1 ♥ --- 1 ♠ ---

3 ♦ --- 3 ♥ ---

3 ♠ --- 4 NT --

5 ♣ --- 6 ♥ ---

 

RKCB 3140 5♣ showing 1 or 3 Keys

 

Please tell me your opinions:

 

1) Do you like the 3♠ bid? My consideration was that I would like better to play in the spade 5/2 than in the heart 5/2-fit.

 

2) Does 3♠ show a club-singleton?

 

3) Which suit is fixed after 3♠? Hearts or spades or none?

 

4) What do you think of North bidding 5♥ instead of 4NT, pointing on the weakness in Clubs?

 

5) How do you give the blame for this hand to N and S?

 

Regards

 

Al

Do I like your 3♠ bid? The answer depends upon what your three spade bid shows. If, as your second question notes, it shows a singleton club, then no, I don't like your 3♠ bid. If it shows a spade control, and moving towards slam, then yes, I like your 3 ♠ bid.

 

There seems to be two ways to go after 3♥ bid by your partner. Both involved cue-bidding. One way is to bid 3♠ and see if parnter can cue-bid a club control. Second way is to rebid 4♦ to shine a laser light on the need for a ♣ control. Fancy people might bid 4♣ as a denial cue-bid, denying a club control (let's forget about these guys).

 

It is just too bad you didn't have a specific agreement with your parnter here. But even if you "promised" a short club, your partner could have made a last train 4♦ here, denying a club honor, just to be sure....

 

Ben

[Guest Jlall]

auction was fine until 3S. Your pard should bid 5S or 5H over that

[olegru]

This hand should not be too difficult for permanent partnership, but next to impossable for accidental partners.

As soon as we get to FG auction, have agreed suit and start to look for a slam we can start control bids.

I like 3♠ bid, but I would treat it as a control bid (Ace or King or singl or void) with agreed ♥, not as a natural spades support.

Now Partner should answer 3NT to show ♥K (if you have such an agreement) or bid 4♥ to deny any minor suit controls (if you do not have 3NT cue-bid to show one of the top trump's). Anyway in one or two bid you or your partner will see absence of ♣ control and stop in game became obvious.

[mr1303]

3S should never be made on a singleton or void when your partner has bid the suit naturally. Give partner KQJxx in the suit, and he'll be delighted by your ace of spades, but disgusted by a shortage. If a 3S cue could be either, how is he meant to know when to look for slam, and when to sign off?

[shoeless]

I agree with McPhee that maybe the 1s is a problem - tell pard you have a fit and find out what he has to say next. However after 3d think I would settle for 4h all change. Pard wants to query after that fine

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I think, the bidding was fine up to 3S.

Over 3S, partner should bid either 4H,

denying a club cue bid, or, if you really

want to drive toward slam, 4S, a cue bid,

since the trump suit is defined, altough,

this would only be justified, if the 3S bid,

promised the King.

 

The 4S could be replaced by 3NT, if the

partnership plays serious 3 NT, showing mild

slam interest, again only justified, if the 3S bid,

promises the King of spade.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[pclayton]

1♠ is fine, with the intention of supporting hearts later; this hand upgrades to a limit raise.

 

3♦ / 3♥ = normal.

 

3♠ - even good partnerships get these wrong. Going back - could 3♥ be a forced preference on xx? If so, can 3♠ be real support, possibly cancelling hearts?

 

Either way, North knows what the problem is and should bid 5♠. I have some sympathy for 4N though - very unlucky to hit pard with solid reds here without a club control.

[mikestar]

Various possible ways of going about it, but 4N with a small doubleton when the lead is marked is a suicide attempt.

[whereagles]

One of the commonest errors at bridge is bidding blackwood without knowing whether all suits are under control. This hand is a fine example of what can go wrong if you decide to skip that requirement.

 

Instead of 4NT, South must bid 4D.

[Chamaco]

3♠ - even good partnerships get these wrong. Going back - could 3♥ be a forced preference on xx? If so, can 3♠ be real support, possibly cancelling hearts?

 

That's the point.

I believe 3H might simply be a preference, so 3S seems to give support.

 

Kaplan inversion or Gazzilli anyone ? :)

[HeartA]

Agree with Ben. 3S after H are agreed as trump is OK, but needs understanding between partership. To avoid misunderstanding (for new partnership), 4D is better.

[luke warm]

agree with ben also, i like 3s if it shows a control ... playing serious 3nt, 3s has to be bid here whether serious or not... i think 3nt by responder would now show serious slam ambition, and i don't think his hand is worth it... so 4h over 3s... now you pass as you know you lose 2 club tricks off the top

[luis]

This is what I think:

 

1) Do you like the 3♠ bid? My consideration was that I would like better to play in the spade 5/2 than in the heart 5/2-fit.

 

Yes I like it a lot but your consideration is wrong. Once pd bid 3♥ over 3♦ your 3♠ bid shows the spade ace or king.

 

2) Does 3♠ show a club-singleton?

 

No way.

 

3) Which suit is fixed after 3♠? Hearts or spades or none?

 

Hearts of course. And they were fixed BEFORE 3♠.

 

4) What do you think of North bidding 5♥ instead of 4NT, pointing on the weakness in Clubs?

 

Horrible bid.

After 3♠ north has a very simple 3NT bid to see if south has a club control.

If south can't bid 4♣ north bids 4♥ and that's all.

 

5) How do you give the blame for this hand to N and S?

 

100% to north for not bidding 3NT over 3♠. Something to south for having doubts about who is to blame and because I think the 3♠ wasn't for South what I should have been.

The 4NT bid without a club control is really really horrible.

[han]

I like the 1S bid, I couldn't imagine bidding 2H as Mcphee suggests, this hand is far too good. I also like the 3S bid, showing a spade control.

 

The 3H bid after the jump shift is hard to handle, since this usually doesn't show 3-card support but merely is a temporizing preference. You could agree to bid 4H with limit raises. A 4S follow up would pinpoint the club weakness.

 

Not an easy hand for a casual partnership.

[beatrix45]

:D

 

Don't you know better than to use Blackwood with two quick losers in a side suit? This is elementary Slam Bidding 101.

 

On the actual hand, just suggest slam by cue bidding 4♦ over partner's 3♥ preference bid. Partner has a MUCH better hand than she might have held - better hearts (three to the king) and a good suit to go along with the spade ace, so she should show the spade ace even though it gets the auction above the 4♥ level.

 

Now, you can show the diamond king AND deny a club control by bidding 5♦. Partner, lacking a club control, should bid 5♥ - end of job.

 

If you need a board, you might consider bluffing a club control by bidding 5♣ over 4♠. If that deters a club lead, you will make seven on the actual hand since partner has a couple of unadvertised extras - the spade queen and the diamond jack.

[Antoine Fourrière]

I do not think a slam with two losers in a side suit when you have twelve top tricks is so bad. It is quite infrequent, and the defense will lead something else nearly half the time. So I would forget about it anyway.

 

The spades are so good that they may provide enough tricks even opposite a misfit and I don't want to disclose opener's hand or discourage a spade lead. So I would answer 3♥ (or a Bergen equivalent) instead of introducing them into the conversation.

Failing that, I would rebid 4♥ over 3♦. 3♥ is rather wrong because opener's third bid now caters only to finding the right game. Over 3♠, responder is no longer in a position to ask for cooperation (3N would still be natural) and may only inquire for a club control or for aces, but not for both, and since it seems now that both spades and hearts are going to run, maybe 6N from the side which has suggested a club control would get a nice passive lead.

[Guest Jlall]

How is 3S a cuebid? This is basic bridge 101, 3H DEFINITELY does not set trumps. What else are you going to bid with a hand like Kxxxx Qx Jxx Jxx after 1H p 1S p 3D? Trumps are only set when you have a known 8 card fit, and 3H is almost always based on TWO trumps (with normal ranged hands and 5-3 in the majors partner would raise immediately, so he either has a 3 card limit or 6+ spades if he has 3 hearts).

[HeartA]

How is 3S a cuebid? This is basic bridge 101, 3H DEFINITELY does not set trumps. What else are you going to bid with a hand like Kxxxx Qx Jxx Jxx after 1H p 1S p 3D? Trumps are only set when you have a known 8 card fit, and 3H is almost always based on TWO trumps (with normal ranged hands and 5-3 in the majors partner would raise immediately, so he either has a 3 card limit or 6+ spades if he has 3 hearts).

agree.

[xx1943]

How is 3S a cuebid? This is basic bridge 101, 3H DEFINITELY does not set trumps. What else are you going to bid with a hand like Kxxxx Qx Jxx Jxx after 1H p 1S p 3D? Trumps are only set when you have a known 8 card fit, and 3H is almost always based on TWO trumps (with normal ranged hands and 5-3 in the majors partner would raise immediately, so he either has a 3 card limit or 6+ spades if he has 3 hearts).

This is what I thought, when I bid 3♠. I was searching for the best game denomination.

Ty Justin. I was a bit confused from some of the above posts.

[Fluffy]

How is 3S a cuebid? This is basic bridge 101, 3H DEFINITELY does not set trumps. What else are you going to bid with a hand like Kxxxx Qx Jxx Jxx after 1H p 1S p 3D? Trumps are only set when you have a known 8 card fit, and 3H is almost always based on TWO trumps (with normal ranged hands and 5-3 in the majors partner would raise immediately, so he either has a 3 card limit or 6+ spades if he has 3 hearts).

Disagree, on teh hand you posted I would bid 4♥, of course that's jsut a matter of style, but setting trumps at the 3 level to be able to cue is a pilar of my system.

[Guest Jlall]

Disagree, on teh hand you posted I would bid 4♥, of course that's jsut a matter of style, but setting trumps at the 3 level to be able to cue is a pilar of my system.

Interesting, finding 8 card fits is a pillar of my system.

[beatrix45]

What else are you going to bid with a hand like Kxxxx Qx Jxx Jxx after 1H p 1S p 3D?

:P

Responder's priorities over the 3♦ game force ought to be:

1. Rebid spades with five

2. Bid NT with a club stop

3. Raise diamonds with four

 

I think that rebidding spades even with five small is important. A fairly high percentage of opener's 3♦ rebids are based on hands with three card spade support where opener badly needs news of the 5-3 major fit. All the world knows that a 3♥ preference may (once in a great while) be based on a small doubleton if responder has 4-2-3-4 distribution with four small clubs.

 

After the 3♥ preference, is 3♠ by opener a cue bid? I dunno for sure, but it is very useful as a natural bid with honour third in spades. It's a way to find a Moyesian fit, which may be the only decent game. Failing that, it can coax a 3NT bid (a near club stop, 10862), or 4♦ (decent three card diamond support and nothing else to bid), or 4♥ (better than minimum heart support).

 

When opener bids 4♦ over 3♥, SHE is confirming hearts and suggesting slam. Hearts is the spot, and she doesn't give a rat's patootie if you just have a small doubleton in support.

[kenberg]

There seems to be varied opinions about the exact meaning of 3H and 3S. I'll tell you what I would do with a casual partner. I think the same woould apply in a more developed partnership as well, but I would be interested in hearing more.

 

 

If my deuce of hearts were the deuce of clubs, I would not take a preference to hearts but rather bid 3S now, and 4H next (including if partner bid 3NT over 3S). On this basis, when I actually do bid 3H, as here, it is not a preference with Kx. On some auctions I take a preference on Kx (maybe even on less) but here the 3D bid gives me the luxury of bidding 3H only when I want to clearly state my support. With less, I give delayed support.

 

It seems clear to me that this is the way to avoid trouble in a casual partnership but really I don't see that anything else is better even in a mature partnership. I hold spades and hearts, and my bidding shows spades and hearts. How bad can this be?

 

Ken