silvr bull Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Matchpoints, Vul against not. Your bid agreements include 5 card majors and 1NT is forcing for one round of bids. What call do you make? [hv=pc=n&s=skq42hakq62d42ct3&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=p1hp1np]133|200[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordontd Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Matchpoints, Vul against not. Your bid agreements include 5 card majors and 1NT is forcing for one round of bids. What call do you make? [hv=pc=n&s=skq42hakq62d42ct3&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=p1hp1np]133|200[/hv]The usual rebid in these situations is 2C but with such good hearts I'd be inclined to rebid 2H. I certainly wouldn't pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycroft Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Flannery players are asking "why are you asking this question? It's an impossible situation; which is why we don't have it."ACBL Standard (to the point where it is an explicit exception to Alertability) is that with 4=5=2=2 and not enough strength to reverse, you bid 2♣.If you force me to not bid "standard", I'll look at AKQxx and say it's a 6-carder, and rebid 2♥. But with AKQ2 KQ642 42 T3, yeah, no.Pass comes about 7th in my options with this hand, just slightly behind sudden heart attack at the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nullve Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 2♣ is the book bid, but I would have opened 1N. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Yes you can pass but this hand is just too good. Id bid 2C and its not my style to open 1N 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvr bull Posted February 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 I guess I should have mentioned in the OP that we open 12-14 NT, so this hand is not only the wrong shape for us to open 1NT, but it is also too strong in playing strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr1303 Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 If partner has a 3 card limit raise or a 10-12 balanced invite, you want to be in game, so pass is clearly wrong. Either 2C or 2H are ok here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nullve Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 deleted nonsense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 When can you pass a forcing NT? Whenever I have a hand that would not accept any invitation and when I have no other clear place to play the partscore, then I pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaitlyn S Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 When can you pass a forcing NT? Whenever I have a hand that would not accept any invitation and when I have no other clear place to play the partscore, then I pass.I have had partners bid a forcing NT with 13 or 14 because the suit they would otherwise bid might get me too excited for slam purposes (we don't play the ubiquitous 2C GF on anything response) so for me the answer is "never". For example, partner bids a forcing NT on Ax, Jxxx, Jxxx, AQJ after I open 1S planning to bid the "obvious" game based on my rebid, rather than bidding 2D and having me go ape with a diamond fit. Of course, it's "semiforcing" by a passed hand since Drury takes care of the 3-card limit raises. And I concur, you bid 2C or 2H with your actual hand. It's a 5-loser hand! Why on earth would you want to pass? EDIT: The Kaplan-Rubens hand evaluator says the actual hand is worth 16.5 points. Evaluation of the OP hand Second EDIT: I hope I can convince the person who voted for PASS to change his/her mind. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaitlyn S Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 I guess I should have mentioned in the OP that we open 12-14 NT, so this hand is not only the wrong shape for us to open 1NT, but it is also too strong in playing strength.In essence you answered your own question. If it's too strong to open 1NT, then it's too strong to pass a forcing notrump (which could easily have some hands that would make game opposite a 12-14 NT.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmnka447 Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 The example hand is exactly the reason Bill Flannery of Pittsburgh came up with his convention. Nonetheless, not playing Flannery, the standard bid would be 2 ♣. Whatever partner does over that will probably be all right. On a more general level, passing a forcing NT, usually shows a flattish absolute minimum hand with a bad trump suit. It doesn't come up very often. Something like ♠ AK6 ♥ 107542 ♦ QJ3 ♣ Q6. I'll admit to having passed a forcing NT something like no more than half a dozen times in 40+ years (thousands of hands) after a Forcing NT response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLilly Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 I think the forcingness of the 1NT should lighten the burden for making a reverse, not that I'd bid 2S in this instance even with say, an extra queen and ten in the non-spade suits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msjennifer Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 We play Precision and this 1 NT is 100 p.c. Forcing for one round.It usually requests opener to bid his longer minor suit .With equal length in minors opener bids 2Club.However,this hand with such a strong heart suit has to respond 2 H. 2C bid with just two rags is simply weird bid.Playing standard We open this hand 2D ( Flannery) since we have found that a weak 2D opening fails to impress the opponents and serves no purpose whatever against advanced or expert opponents.To bid a minor with only xx in the suit is stretching the things too far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aawk Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 If 1nt is limited with 5-11 HCP pass is my bid. If 1nt is unlimited a 4522 pattern is a problem hand which has to bid trough 2♣ or 2♥ if agreed on. A possible solution for this rebid problem with a 100 % forcing 1nt is : 1♥ - 1♠ A : 0-3 card ♠ 6-11 HCPB : 4+ card ♠ 11+ HCP game forcing 1♥ - 1nt 4-5 card ♠ 6-11 HCP 1♥ - 2♠ 6+ card s 6-10 HCP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinidad Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 When can you pass a forcing NT? When one of your opponents shows you his 2=5=3=3 hand with 20 HCPs. On this hand, you even have two possibilities: 2♣ and 2♥. Why would you pass? Rik 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamJson Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 You should never pass a forcing bid just because you don't like the options available. You just have to make the least worse bid. In this case I'd be inclined to overstate my strength a little rather than give the wrong idea about my distribution. Hence my think I would reluctantly opt for 2S. It is a five loser hand with all the strength in the long suits, but it would be nice to have another king. I guess the other option is 2C which might work well if partner passes or bids 2D or... Hmmm, maybe 2C is better...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycroft Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 As far as I'm concerned, passing a *forcing* 1NT is a psychic call, and deserves all the consideration any other psychic call does. If it gets a good score, great (but if partner starts misbidding her hand in case you pass *this one*, then nothing short of the good score winning the NABC+ event is good enough); if it gets a bad score, no matter *what stupid thing* partner did (including revoking and misclaiming), it's 100% your fault; if partner has said it's a PLM if you psych, it's grounds for never playing again; ... Those people that want to pass with 11, 12, bad 13 (good 10?) 5M332s, fine; but you're playing a *semi-forcing* 1NT; you need to Announce it as such; and you've worked your system such that it's going to win more often than it loses. Fine. Having said all of that, this hand is closer to a reverse than a bad flat opener; as I said, I rate dying higher than passing on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 What is PLM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmnka447 Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 What is PLM?Partnership Limiting Move? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycroft Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 sorry, yes, in parallel with CLM (Career Limiting Move). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedlevy Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 The question answers itself. Forcing is forcing. Normally partner has less than 11 or 12, but in some styles, can have more. Regardless, you must bid (I suppose it would be OK to pass when playing against a BOT in a robot tournament, since you are only hurting yourself.) With the example hand (you may have a partnership agreement for this specific size/ shape) you either rebid 2C or 2H. There are reasonable arguments for either alternative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmnka447 Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 We play Precision and this 1 NT is 100 p.c. Forcing for one round.It usually requests opener to bid his longer minor suit .With equal length in minors opener bids 2Club.However,this hand with such a strong heart suit has to respond 2 H. 2C bid with just two rags is simply weird bid. Playing standard We open this hand 2D ( Flannery) since we have found that a weak 2D opening fails to impress the opponents and serves no purpose whatever against advanced or expert opponents. To bid a minor with only xx in the suit is stretching the things too far.If you're not playing Flannery, then having a discussion of what to do when holding a minimum 4 ♠/5 ♥ hand over a Forcing NT should be mandatory. Not playing Flannery, a Forcing NT response denies 4 ♠ and 3 ♥ when you hold an absolute minimum (5-8) range hand. If you held either, presumably 1 ♠ or 2 ♥ would be bid. Whenever responder holds a doubleton ♥ with such a hand, the normal rebid is 2 ♥. So the problematic hands for bidding 2 ♣ with a doubleton are where responder holds a stiff ♥ or 5 ♣ and 2 ♥. With 5 ♣ and 2 ♥, responder may choose to play the "known" 5-3 ♣ fit rather than play the 5-2 ♥ fit resulting in a less optimum result. If responder holds a stiff ♥, the problem hand is probably something like ♠ xxx ♥ x ♦ Jxxxx ♣ KQxx. Responder has to choose whether to pass and play a "known" 4 opposite 3+ ♣ fit or bid a terrible ♦ suit. I suspect most would just pass and end up playing a 4-2 fit. But how often would those hands come up? OTOH, you get to play 2 of a minor when responder has a long minor and no major fit. If responder has a maximum Forcing NT range hand, a second forward going call will be made and the 2 ♣ rebid probably won't be a problem. The foregoing has to be weighed against deciding to rebid 2 ♥ or 2 ♠ with these hands and what can go wrong with those rebids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaitlyn S Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 What is PLM?Pompous Life Master? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molly6664 Posted February 23, 2017 Report Share Posted February 23, 2017 The usual rebid in these situations is 2C but with such good hearts I'd be inclined to rebid 2H. I certainly wouldn't pass.I would bid 2 Spades Partner will know you have 4S and can make a choice as to where to go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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