How rude is rude?

[661_Pete]

Forgive the rather cryptic title please! This is more to do with human psychology than bridge.

 

I've been playing and kibitzing BBO for quite a while now, mostly enjoyable.

 

Sometimes I kibitz tables in the MBC, though I never play there - and I see some players robustly and aggressively slanging away at their partners. I have to say, not the best aspect of the BBO community but I suppose we have to live with it, shrug it off. 'Human nature' etc. etc. etc. ;) It happens far less in the Acol club.

 

Recently, on two separate occasions, I didn't know how to cope with two particularly dire partners: random pick-ups. In each case I was dummy and I flounced off the table in mid hand, having said a peremptory "bye". This is something I hate doing, but even worse is to launch into a blistering criticism of partner who may, indeed, have made a genuine mistake. I couldn't sit and watch the hand being mis-played, I just had to cut and run.

 

What sort of things can one say to partner without causing upset?

[Kaitlyn S]

I'm probably not the best to answer because my general policy is to not say something if I have a reasonable expectation that it will be perceived as unpleasant. (Okay, I can think of one glaring exception in these forums but that's still my general policy. Surprisingly, I got positive reputation for my "obnoxious" post :D )

 

There are at least two reasons why it is beneficial to avoid being unpleasant.

 

(a) If you are routinely pleasant, more players will want to play with you, including the ones that could lead to fantastic partnerships.

 

(b) If you are unpleasant, even if you think it's justified, other players might not perceive it as justified and will take the opportunity to jump all over you for your first mistake at some future point "because you deserve it for being unpleasant." Your own experience will be diminished.

 

That being said, sometimes one unintentionally says things that could make somebody feel worse and one can't feel bad when that happens. When discussing a convention or a treatment, it may become obvious that partner has made a mistake and you are pointing it out even though your intent was to clear up a misunderstanding. Stuff happens. If your intentions are good, don't worry about it.

 

Many will disagree with me but I think it's okay to be perceived as being unpleasant to diffuse a ticking time bomb - you see a heated exchange between friends that could reach a boiling point soon and it probably doesn't matter what you say to try to calm the situation down, it will be perceived negatively. I've received many a nasty comment in response to my observation that a player being berated (playing with his/her spouse) is just as smart as he/she was on the day she married "you", but I might have saved a couple of relationships too so it was worth all the nastiness I received in response just knowing that I might have done some good, or at least made the person realize that the person that she/he was calling stupid really wasn't so stupid after all.

 

Of course, there's another reason why you might want to not be unpleasant. This really shouldn't be a reason because people shouldn't behave this way, but human nature being what it is...

 

I just checked, and we would have gotten about 300 reports today.

 

And even if we had the resources to investigate this much, what can we do about it? We can cancel their accounts, but all they have to do is create new ones.

 

This was a discussion of rogue 7NT bidders who just raise their partners to seven out of spite and then leave. 300 in one day! Are you kidding me? However, I'd bet that most of the 300 people that have the unfortunate experience each day of being raised to seven on garbage and losing 20 plus IMPs for no good reason were unpleasant to their partners. It happens 300 times a day but it has never happened to me. I suspect that if I made a habit of being nasty, that I would be one of those 300 daily victims a few times.

[1eyedjack]

This was a discussion of rogue 7NT bidders who just raise their partners to seven out of spite and then leave. 300 in one day! Are you kidding me?

Is your surprise because the number is surprisingly large or surprisingly small? Personally I would not know how to react without knowing the denominator, ie total population of hands played.

[1eyedjack]

Recently, on two separate occasions, I didn't know how to cope with two particularly dire partners: random pick-ups. In each case I was dummy and I flounced off the table in mid hand, having said a peremptory "bye".

I don't know whether it is *perceived* as rude, but I personally think that leaving mid hand as dummy should be perfectly acceptable, and not even affect your hand completion rate. It gives the table an opportunity to re-fill the table for the next hand with the minimum of delay, and I would personally encourage leaving early if you know that you are leaving. You could stand up from the table and watch as kibitzer if you want.

[m1cha]

Recently, on two separate occasions, I didn't know how to cope with two particularly dire partners: random pick-ups. In each case I was dummy and I flounced off the table in mid hand, having said a peremptory "bye". This is something I hate doing, but even worse is to launch into a blistering criticism of partner who may, indeed, have made a genuine mistake. I couldn't sit and watch the hand being mis-played, I just had to cut and run.

 

What sort of things can one say to partner without causing upset?

If it's your regular partner you will know what you can say and what not. If it's a random pickup, well, you might try something carefully and see where it get's you. But actually, there may be a number of reasons for not saying anything, such as:

- he realized his mistake and your comment would not be news to him;

- he's a bad player and he knows it and he has given up trying to improve, so your comment would not be helpful;

- he's a better player than you who had good reasons for a play that just wasn't successful;

- he's a sensitive guy who doesn't like to get critisized;

- he's just killing some time and not interested in a discussion that may get stressful or lengthy;

- he IS interested in your comment but he doesn't AGREE. Your discussion gets lengthy and you are boring your opponents;

etc.

 

If you really cannot stand what someone is doing, I feel "gtg bye" is a sensible solution.

 

Here's a little story for you. After some years in BBO, I've got 2 people on my enemy list. I forgot how one of them got there but here's it for the other one. I was playing in an individual tournament in some standard contract. It turned out to be complicated with many occasions to make decisions. I found I was playing reasonably, though I don't insist I was always playing according to probability. Anyway, all my choices turned out wrong for the given distribution of cards, and I ended up with a number of undertricks. After the tournament (!) I got a message from my then-partner saying he had "never seen such pathetic play in his whole life". This was the first message I ever got from anyone in BBO. Well, I felt I couldn't leave it there and wondered how to respond for quite a while. Then I had this idea of checking his tournament result and found out he had ended up at 35 % while I had still made it to 55 %. It was clear immediately that any response whatsoever from my side would be a waste of effort. But I put him on that list in order to save him from the trouble of having to play with me again.

 

I prefer the relaxed bridge club to the main bridge club because it's more, well, relaxed. If my partner gets upset about me in that environment, I tend to stay intentionally and wait for THEM to leave which often doesn't take long. My opponents usually appreciate this. ;)

[silvr bull]

Leaving as dummy is not even close to being rude, and it is much better than saying something uninvited to your CHO. People who refuse to learn basic bridge often compensate with advanced skills in hostility, and there is no value in wasting your time or emotional energy on arguments with a proven idiot. I have played several individual tournaments, and by now I am inoculated at the unbelievable stupidity that can be displayed by the other players, even if they have more than 5,000 logons or they self rate as "Expert." Now my only reaction is to laugh at the display of gross incompetence and silently say something like "incredible." There is one situation, however, that continues to make my blood boil. I just hate it when a declarer has all top winning cards, but refuses to claim and plays slowly as if to decide which useless card to discard. I can still manage to not say anything, but I am grateful that I will not often have to play with that person again in an individual. If was at a table where that person would stay, however, I would criticize the first time. If a similar situation was repeated, I would be unable to restrain caustic sarcasm as I quickly left for a better playing opportunity elsewhere.

[msjennifer]

If your partner is a good player he/she realises the mistake.There is no point in pointing out the mistake to rub salt.Appreciate his/her normal good play and just ignore his /her mistakes.I f you prefer do not accept him/her as a partner again politely.If partner points out your mistake either ignore it or say misclik.Life is pleasant if you don't complain or explain.

[661_Pete]

If it's your regular partner you will know what you can say and what not. If it's a random pickup, well, you might try something carefully and see where it get's you.

Agree. I did mention that both these were random pickups.

 

But actually, there may be a number of reasons for not saying anything, such as:

- he realized his mistake and your comment would not be news to him;

- he's a bad player and he knows it and he has given up trying to improve, so your comment would not be helpful;

- he's a better player than you who had good reasons for a play that just wasn't successful;

- he's a sensitive guy who doesn't like to get critisized;

- he's just killing some time and not interested in a discussion that may get stressful or lengthy;

- he IS interested in your comment but he doesn't AGREE. Your discussion gets lengthy and you are boring your opponents;

etc.

One of the partners had actually marked themself as 'novice' on their card. That's good, in my eyes. It suggests they are here to improve their game. So I like to feel that a gentle hint on the lines of "you would have been better to play ....." would - far from being amiss - actually be constructive. But I am loath to do even that - risk of a flare-up.

 

If I myself drop an almighty clanger (and it happens often enough) - and I realise it immediately - I always apologise to partner. That breaks the ice straight away - partner can then freely 'explain' to me without fear of reprisal.

 

If you really cannot stand what someone is doing, I feel "gtg bye" is a sensible solution.

That's exactly what I did.

 

Here's a little story for you. After some years in BBO, I've got 2 people on my enemy list. I forgot how one of them got there but here's it for the other one. I was playing in an individual tournament in some standard contract. It turned out to be complicated with many occasions to make decisions. I found I was playing reasonably, though I don't insist I was always playing according to probability. Anyway, all my choices turned out wrong for the given distribution of cards, and I ended up with a number of undertricks. After the tournament (!) I got a message from my then-partner saying he had "never seen such pathetic play in his whole life". This was the first message I ever got from anyone in BBO. Well, I felt I couldn't leave it there and wondered how to respond for quite a while. Then I had this idea of checking his tournament result and found out he had ended up at 35 % while I had still made it to 55 %. It was clear immediately that any response whatsoever from my side would be a waste of effort. But I put him on that list in order to save him from the trouble of having to play with me again.

I think you were quite right to do so. Direct insults are totally out of order. Sadly they seem to happen a lot of the time.

 

OK, I'll go into just a little bit of detail, regarding the 'novice' pick-up partner. We were in a 3NT contract which was rock-solid after the opening lead: eight tricks on top outside of spades, I held ♠xx, partner as declarer held ♠Kx. Nine tricks. Lead was a low spade to West's J, and partner ducked. Perhaps partner was confused for a moment and thought they held Ax, in which case it would have been OK to duck. Perhaps it was a mis-click. Perhaps not. Either way, perhaps I should have said something, but I ducked out.

[scarletv]

If your partner is a good player he/she realises the mistake.There is no point in pointing out the mistake to rub salt.Appreciate his/her normal good play and just ignore his /her mistakes.I f you prefer do not accept him/her as a partner again politely.If partner points out your mistake either ignore it or say misclik.Life is pleasant if you don't complain or explain.

I would not be interested to play more than once with someone who gives no feedback. There are so many different types of players and each will prefer a different treatment. You will often get a feeling if partner is willing to discuss when you ask about carding and system to play. When there are only short replies or none at all then it will rarely make sense to discuss about hands later.

 

I for one hate it to read after each board "wdp" "gto" "wdo" "gtp"... without really reflecting the bid or play. This is for me not only annoying and often misguiding but being rude when someone is given a wdp for a play he did really poor or the opps made gifts. Especially US players have this habit.

 

I will rarely give feedback to a player with 5000 logins making silly faults. It does not look as if he/she might be interested to learn. But a beginner or novice with less than 500 logins might get some friendly feedback on easy errors when there is time for it preferably in direct chat. Only when he/she shows interest I might continue later. I do remember well when I was grateful myself for some hints that I got.

 

Accusing feedback is a bad idea no matter who your partner is. But partners that play frequently together can give more direct feedback than pickup partners without being rude. Remember there are cultural differences all over the world in the way how to give appropriate feedback.

 

How to handle rude treatment against yourself? Take the next opportunity and say "gtg" is mostly the best. Don't forget to mark the player that you remember not to play again with him/her. I must admit that I myself don't always stick to this rule. :D

[RD350LC]

In general, I give three strikes before removing a player. If a person makes a mistake, and does not repeat it, then there is no problem. People will make mistakes-as do I.

Things that will get me to boot a partner immediately is repeating a pre-empt or underleading an ace in a suit contract (it is ok in NT).

I have experienced 'players' who booted me because (in defense), I was setting their contract by a telephone number (or more). I also have had partners boot me because they did not understand my play-in this case it was a loser on loser play.

I will take a person's rating of expert, and they do not have a profile, with a very large grain of salt.

 

On a side note, if a player is taking far too long to make a bid or play, I will do a countdown from 5 before removing the player. I have played a lot of tournament bridge, and it is a timed game. Now, it is ok to take your time, especially at trick 1.

Just my comments.

[mycroft]

I prefer (not that I play with pickups any more) to suffer through a few hands, and then state, "last for me" and then get up. I can wait a trick or two (even a hand or three) to make it not obviously "you're an idiot and you need to go find a game where you never, ever, have a partner. Just In My Humble Opinion, though."

 

The exception? Players who teach me, or tell me things that, after seeing all 52 cards, are now obvious. Anyone who makes it clear that "oh by the way, I'm smarter than you are" or "you need free lessons from me" get one chance to shut up and dummy, and then "when I want lessons, I'll pay for them. Bye."

 

Regular partnerships - that's a whole other story.

 

So, scarletv and I may not be compatible pickups...

[colleenfi]

I have always had this thought while playing online bridge with someone random - we don't know why the person isn't playing the way we think they should. They could be very old, ill, coping with a death or any kind of tragedy. Being nice or just leaving if you get frustrated is always better than berating.

[PhilG007]

Forgive the rather cryptic title please! This is more to do with human psychology than bridge.

 

I've been playing and kibitzing BBO for quite a while now, mostly enjoyable.

 

Sometimes I kibitz tables in the MBC, though I never play there - and I see some players robustly and aggressively slanging away at their partners. I have to say, not the best aspect of the BBO community but I suppose we have to live with it, shrug it off. 'Human nature' etc. etc. etc. ;) It happens far less in the Acol club.

 

Recently, on two separate occasions, I didn't know how to cope with two particularly dire partners: random pick-ups. In each case I was dummy and I flounced off the table in mid hand, having said a peremptory "bye". This is something I hate doing, but even worse is to launch into a blistering criticism of partner who may, indeed, have made a genuine mistake. I couldn't sit and watch the hand being mis-played, I just had to cut and run.

 

What sort of things can one say to partner without causing upset?

My classic put downs to rude partners are "Your bad manners are exceeded only by your bad manners"

and " I didn't ask for your opinion. Unwanted and unneeded" Try them and report back results ;)

[PhilG007]

My grandparents favourite saying about ignoramuses was "Empty barrels make the loudest noise" :)

[steve2005]

This was a discussion of rogue 7NT bidders who just raise their partners to seven out of spite and then leave.

Anyone who bids 7N out of spite just flag them as ignore and be done with them.

[miamijd]

I don't play in the MBC, only in tourneys, but I used to play a lot on the MBC equivalent on OKB. Just saying "bye" and leaving as dummy in the middle of a hand can be perceived to be a bit rude. It's basically saying "I see the way you're playing this hand, partner, and obviously you're not good enough for me to play with, so I'm leaving." I had players do that to me on OKB, and almost without exception, they were (i) leaving because they didn't like some bid or play I made and (ii) likely wrong in their assessment.

 

A better way to handle it would be to "Sorry, I have to make this my last hand. Thanks, partner." Or "Sorry, but I can't play any more right now. Thanks p." Yes, you could be leaving because you don't want to play with your partner any more, but you also could be leaving because you really have to go. And it never hurts to thank partner for his or her time, even if they have messed things up badly.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[mycroft]

The problem isn't that *your* partner bids 7, sends it back and disappears in a huff, it's that if one of the other 31 tables had that happen, you're scoring 2 or so IMPs more (or less) than you should because of it.

 

Again, though, as I say about those burned by psyches; wow, compared to all the mild misjudgements I make (never mind the clear errors my partners spew out, or the screamingly insane calls my opponents commit (that come home anyway) - it's one of those irregular verbs again), the chance that I'll hit one of those 300 happenings today; if that's the difference between me having a good session and giving up on BBO, well, I must live a sheltered life.

 

I absolutely agree that anybody you find doing that you should add to the enemies list, even if they committed this at another table.

 

Having said that, "when did you learn to play this game. Sorry, I know it was today - but what *time* today?" is a great joke; one that should never actually happen, nor should any of its milder forms. If your choice is between "flounce" and "tirade", I don't think the problem is with partner, incompetent though they may be.

[Vampyr]

In general, I give three strikes before removing a player. If a person makes a mistake, and does not repeat it, then there is no problem. People will make mistakes-as do I.

Things that will get me to boot a partner immediately is repeating a pre-empt or underleading an ace in a suit contract (it is ok in NT).

I have experienced 'players' who booted me because (in defense), I was setting their contract by a telephone number (or more). I also have had partners boot me because they did not understand my play-in this case it was a loser on loser play.

I will take a person's rating of expert, and they do not have a profile, with a very large grain of salt.

 

On a side note, if a player is taking far too long to make a bid or play, I will do a countdown from 5 before removing the player. I have played a lot of tournament bridge, and it is a timed game. Now, it is ok to take your time, especially at trick 1.

Just my comments.

 

Tournaments usually give 7.5 minutes per board. This does allow for some calls and plays to take considerably longer than five seconds.

[1eyedjack]

Tournaments usually give 7.5 minutes per board. This does allow for some calls and plays to take considerably longer than five seconds.

The 5 second countdown clock only starts after an oppo has already taken an inordinately long time to act.

[Kaitlyn S]

Is your surprise because the number is surprisingly large or surprisingly small? Personally I would not know how to react without knowing the denominator, ie total population of hands played.

Does the denominator really matter? The fact that it would even happen once in a billion hands is disgusting. But apparently the problem is far worse than that, and the other thread implies that it would be too expensive in manpower to deal with these trolls. In fact, it would be nearly impossible. For a troll doesn't have to jump to 7NT to lose 20 IMPs on purpose. He can scientifically bid a 21 point hand when holding a balanced 9-count for the same result and it would be a lot harder to implement software to catch those trolls.

[nige1]

Rude players are rarely good players. They slow down the game. Worse, they break the law. Normally, dummy should remain silent. Exhorting declarer to claim blatantly interferes with the play. But, anyway, rudeness is simply against the law. As dummy, If you can't endure the antics of other players at the table, you should say "Got to go. Thanks. Bye." And consider taking up some other pass-time :)

[1eyedjack]

Does the denominator really matter? The fact that it would even happen once in a billion hands is disgusting. But apparently the problem is far worse than that, and the other thread implies that it would be too expensive in manpower to deal with these trolls. In fact, it would be nearly impossible. For a troll doesn't have to jump to 7NT to lose 20 IMPs on purpose. He can scientifically bid a 21 point hand when holding a balanced 9-count for the same result and it would be a lot harder to implement software to catch those trolls.

I would say that the denominator does matter. Speaking from personal experience, I have never personally encountered a rogue 7N bidder at my table, where I might gain 20 IMPs, and I can't remember noticing it happening at a neighbouring table, where I might gain 1 or 2 IMPs. (I have however encountered a lot of rudeness of other types.) So I rather unscientifically conclude for all that they sampled 300 in a day, it is likely still to be a tiny drop in the ocean.

 

Personally I would rather their resources where concentrated in exposing the more subtle cheats who actually aim to gain by their nefariousness. And before someone chimes in with "but you don't need to look for one to the exclusion of the other" it seems that the finite resources dictate just that.

[johnu]

Personally I would rather their resources where concentrated in exposing the more subtle cheats who actually aim to gain by their nefariousness. And before someone chimes in with "but you don't need to look for one to the exclusion of the other" it seems that the finite resources dictate just that.

 

So-called low hanging fruit is aptly named. The destructive 7NT bidders are easy to catch and it's an easy programming task that can be automated. What you are talking about is very difficult to program, maybe on a difficulty level of programming GIB and I'm sure you know how many tens of thousands of hours went into GIB.

[mycroft]

As discussed in the other thread, sure it's (relatively) easy to program. However, now you have to review it; I've had 1♣-1♦; 2NT-7♣ auctions - that rolled - before. Now you have to do something about it, and that is non-trivial. Of course, I'm waiting for the day that BBO "randomly" deals out the Duke of Cumberland hand - just to see how many people recognize it in the auction :-).

 

I do tend to agree with those people who are implying that if a once- or twice-a-year thing at another table that randomly gives or takes away an IMP or two is enough to frustrate one's use of a fantastic FREE site, then I can't imagine how one plays with randoms on BBO, never mind actual partners. I would also suggest that if one is the recipient of more than one of those 7x flounces in a year, it might not be all their issue; certainly if it's a "regular" occurrence, there's something else going on.

 

I will note that I don't play with randoms on BBO, but not because I've ever had this perpetrated; I just don't enjoy playing with AIs that complain about *my* play, whether they're right or not (or better than I or not). I also don't really like "playing the fish" with my regular partners, where we're likely to confuse as well as do well just because of our familiarity and system (try keeping opposition if you play Precision, or the comments you get when you 'confuse' them on defence with that dreaded 12-14 1NT opener).

 

When I can get a table, especially a table of people I know, I thoroughly enjoy the site; and the odd time that there's a flaky result in the mix is a "roll with the punches" thing. Although most of the time, it's the eternally optimistic who bid 6 every time they can see 11 tricks or so ("where there's 11, there's 12, right?") providing the "well, bidding the obvious game and making it scores +1.5 or -1.5 at random", not the punishing grand types.

[scoria16]

If a player is being rude to me I just keep silent play the game then blacklist them on my friends list. Then you do not have to play with them again. Although if somebody is over the top I report them to BBO.