lamford Posted February 9, 2017 Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 [hv=pc=n&s=skj6hqt53da73cq94&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=2c(FG%20or%20Bal%2020-22)p2d(waiting)2hp(20-22%20Bal)p?]133|200[/hv]IMPs. Your go. The options appear to be 3NT, 4NT and 6NT, all natural. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted February 9, 2017 Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 [hv=pc=n&s=skj6hqt53da73cq94&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=2c(FG%20or%20Bal%2020-22)p2d(waiting)2hp(20-22%20Bal)p?]133|200[/hv]IMPs. Your go. The options appear to be 3NT, 4NT and 6NT, all natural. Clearly if we're going to play NT I want to play it on the off chance that W has ♥KJ and there's another loser. Is your strategy to rarely invite and often accept or the reverse ? If it's that I bid 4N. Also do you bid 2N with a stiff honour often ? and what are your responses to 4N ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggwhiz Posted February 9, 2017 Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 Ugly (the 20-22 balanced range especially) 5♥, can you stop two fast losers? Followed by the cheapest notrump bid and yes, I'm making this up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinksy Posted February 9, 2017 Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 4N. If P has any substance in hearts, I expect him to err towards optimism. If not, our hand isn't worth 12 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfi Posted February 9, 2017 Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 How about double? Partner will bid NT with a stopper and then I can invite or bid slam as I see fit. If partner bids something else, maybe it's best to stop in 3NT. I thought about 3H but it's harder to convince partner to let us play NT when they don't have a stopper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted February 9, 2017 Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 What would X be by partner? I mean I hope he did not show 20-22 balanced with 4144 (I expect this to double) Anyway, I bid 3♥ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted February 9, 2017 Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 What would X be by partner? I mean I hope he did not show 20-22 balanced with 4144 (I expect this to double) Anyway, I bid 3♥ He might have to, pass = 20-22 bal anything else is bigger would not be silly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaitlyn S Posted February 10, 2017 Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 Assuming double isn't penalty, I bid 4NT. If partner has the HA and no HJ, I want to declare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmnka447 Posted February 10, 2017 Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 I'm bidding 3 ♥ also. I think that only says "Partner I've got a really good hand" at this point. If partner has a distributional hand, there's no reason not to start bidding it over 2 ♥. Yet the hand in question has decent support for any suit partner has and is enough to show a positive holding no matter what. It's robust enough to feel like the two hands are at least on the fringe of slam. But slam could well depend on the ♥ situation and that needs to be determined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted February 10, 2017 Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 I'm bidding 3 ♥ also. I think that only says "Partner I've got a really good hand" at this point. If partner has a distributional hand, there's no reason not to start bidding it over 2 ♥. Yet the hand in question has decent support for any suit partner has and is enough to show a positive holding no matter what. It's robust enough to feel like the two hands are at least on the fringe of slam. But slam could well depend on the ♥ situation and that needs to be determined. 20-22 balanced is probably not overly distributional. 3♥ seems like it could wrongside NT. Tough problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahydra Posted February 10, 2017 Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 4NT seems like the best description. ahydra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamford Posted February 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 What would X be by partner? I mean I hope he did not show 20-22 balanced with 4144 (I expect this to double) Anyway, I bid 3♥X by partner would be take-out, but not 20-22 balanced. So all other big hands. 3H was a transfer to spades in our methods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamford Posted February 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 He might have to, pass = 20-22 bal anything else is bigger would not be sillyThat is how we play. Double is takeout and 2NT is 25-28. I doubled (takeout) to find out more about his hand and partner bid 2S (corrected typo, sorry) and I now bid a conservative 3NT which was roundly condemned by all and sundry, including my partner. However, I share Jinksy's view that this is not a 12-count on the bidding. My SIM showed slam making 67% of the time, opposite 21-22, suggesting 4NT is the right bid. However, when I looked at the first 24 hands, there was a massive bias in favour of declarer.https://www.dropbox.com/s/mp19vhpyv9pt67z/H1.png?dl=0https://www.dropbox.com/s/3cw1y0pc14661ex/H2.png?dl=0https://www.dropbox.com/s/oniotbrhuv0g7j6/H3.png?dl=0 were 3 of the hands where DF makes 6NT. I gave partner the AH for the purposes of the SIM and always played it by South. The first is pretty where you have to extract West's pointed suit cards and play ace and a club endplaying him. He cannot afford to unblock the J as you then finesse the 9! In the second you need to take an intra-finesse in diamonds. In the third one you need to get the diamonds right and pin the doubleton 109 of spades. My impression from the SIM was that slam was probably around 40% in practice, even opposite 21-22 and generally good 21s. The other theme of my SIM was that DF always guessed a pointed-suit queen even when it was with the long hearts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted February 10, 2017 Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 I'd just bid 3NT. Give partner AQ10x Ax KQ10x AKx and I don't want to be in slam, given the bidding. For slam to be good we need him to have a five-card minor, or some magic holding that makes my ♣9 useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamford Posted February 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 I'd just bid 3NT. Give partner AQ10x Ax KQ10x AKx and I don't want to be in slam, given the bidding. For slam to be good we need him to have a five-card minor, or some magic holding that makes my ♣9 useful.I did too! We should have a game some time as I was mocked for doing so, with people suggesting I needed JTx of diamonds and a five-count to make a move ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted February 10, 2017 Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 I'd just bid 3NT. Give partner AQ10x Ax KQ10x AKx and I don't want to be in slam, given the bidding. For slam to be good we need him to have a five-card minor, or some magic holding that makes my ♣9 useful. Having pd hold Kx♥ may increase the chances of slam. AQxx Kx KQJx AKx would be more than enough for a claim. AQxx Kx KQJx AJx would be cold on a finesse (and squeeze/endplay) AQxx Kx KQx AKJx would be more than enough for claim You can add the HJ ♥ combinations and 5 card minor hands. Still you have a valid point for bidding 3 NT. I have no idea how to possibly learn which one of them pd has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted February 10, 2017 Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 That is how we play. Double is takeout and 2NT is 25-28. I doubled (takeout) to find out more about his hand and partner bid 3S and I now bid a conservative 3NT which was roundly condemned by all and sundry, including my partner. However, I share Jinksy's view that this is not a 12-count on the bidding. My SIM showed slam making 67% of the time, opposite 21-22, suggesting 4NT is the right bid. However, when I looked at the first 24 hands, there was a massive bias in favour of declarer.https://www.dropbox.com/s/mp19vhpyv9pt67z/H1.png?dl=0https://www.dropbox.com/s/3cw1y0pc14661ex/H2.png?dl=0https://www.dropbox.com/s/oniotbrhuv0g7j6/H3.png?dl=0 were 3 of the hands where DF makes 6NT. I gave partner the AH for the purposes of the SIM and always played it by South. The first is pretty where you have to extract West's pointed suit cards and play ace and a club endplaying him. He cannot afford to unblock the J as you then finesse the 9! In the second you need to take an intra-finesse in diamonds. In the third one you need to get the diamonds right and pin the doubleton 109 of spades. My impression from the SIM was that slam was probably around 40% in practice, even opposite 21-22 and generally good 21s. The other theme of my SIM was that DF always guessed a pointed-suit queen even when it was with the long hearts. Yes but W doesn't always find the right lead either, a heart is almost always fatal, so he may have to pick between a number of suits consisting of only small cards/Js and can easily pick up a 2-way for you or worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted February 10, 2017 Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 What is your follow-up structure to the pass though? One idea that is often used in this kind of auction is for 2♠ to be a puppet to 2NT and take us back into the standard structure. That provides a huge amount of flexibility in all of the other actions, for example then using 2NT and 3♣ as minor suit transfers or 2NT as MSS and 3m naturally. Either way we also need some meanings for a direct 3♥ and 3♠ that are not covered elsewhere. In any case, I do feel that if you are relying only on general natural rules here, you are missing a trick that could vastly improve your bidding accuracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamford Posted February 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 What is your follow-up structure to the pass though? One idea that is often used in this kind of auction is for 2♠ to be a puppet to 2NT and take us back into the standard structure. That provides a huge amount of flexibility in all of the other actions, for example then using 2NT and 3♣ as minor suit transfers or 2NT as MSS and 3m naturally. Either way we also need some meanings for a direct 3♥ and 3♠ that are not covered elsewhere. In any case, I do feel that if you are relying only on general natural rules here, you are missing a trick that could vastly improve your bidding accuracy.Our structure, and we welcome suggested improvements particularly from you, Zel, is Pass = 20-22, then 2S = invitational (as we play 2C-2S as NF opposite 20-22), 2NT to play, the rest as though we have opened 2NT. Double is takeout, and any raise of partner is then FG. 4NT before or after double is natural, INV> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamford Posted February 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 Yes but W doesn't always find the right lead either, a heart is almost always fatal, so he may have to pick between a number of suits consisting of only small cards/Js and can easily pick up a 2-way for you or worse.Indeeed, but West was, I am told, Forrester's new partner, and he won't be under-leading a king, something Forrester deplores. I agree that sometimes a lead will pick up a two-way queen guess, but even so, I think 40% is about right. There are three other suits to lead, and usually only one guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamford Posted February 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 Having pd hold Kx♥ may increase the chances of slam. AQxx Kx KQJx AKx would be more than enough for a claim. AQxx Kx KQJx AJx would be cold on a finesse (and squeeze/endplay) AQxx Kx KQx AKJx would be more than enough for claim You can add the HJ ♥ combinations and 5 card minor hands. Still you have a valid point for bidding 3 NT. I have no idea how to possibly learn which one of them pd has.Our 2NT opener is 23-24 and some good 22s will upgrade. I tend to think KQJx puts a 22 count into the 23 count bracket, certainly if you add a ten to it. And the hands you think are more than enough for a claim are actually exactly enough! But you make a good point that partner having Kx of hearts is better than Ax. And I have just made up some better methods here. Suggest 3D is a transfer to 3H (their suit) and is a stopper enquiry, game forcing. Partner bids 3S with no stopper 3NT with a stopper. Then, over the latter, 4C asks and 4D is QJx, 4H is Kx(x), 4S is Ax(x) and 4NT is more than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted February 10, 2017 Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 I don't understand the need to commit to slam, or even to commit to the 3-level.Partner's pass of 2H is not exactly 20-22 balanced, it's either that or penalties of hearts (as double is take-out). This seems a slightly odd agreement, as you can't defend 2Hx when opener and responder are both balanced, but ignoring that for the moment.. Partner passes 2H, and you double "take-out" (it's not really take-out, it's any hand prepared to defend if partner has a penalty double, I assume).Partner finds the very odd call of 2S (given their hand) - not 3S as you have written above. Why not just bid 2NT, forcing, and see what he does? If you had a hand that was going to pass 20-22 bal, then you just pass out 2H, so double here then 2NT is game forcing. You now have lots and lots of room to find out if there is a slam on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamford Posted February 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 I don't understand the need to commit to slam, or even to commit to the 3-level.Partner's pass of 2H is not exactly 20-22 balanced, it's either that or penalties of hearts (as double is take-out). This seems a slightly odd agreement, as you can't defend 2Hx when opener and responder are both balanced, but ignoring that for the moment.. Partner passes 2H, and you double "take-out" (it's not really take-out, it's any hand prepared to defend if partner has a penalty double, I assume).Partner finds the very odd call of 2S (given their hand) - not 3S as you have written above. Why not just bid 2NT, forcing, and see what he does? If you had a hand that was going to pass 20-22 bal, then you just pass out 2H, so double here then 2NT is game forcing. You now have lots and lots of room to find out if there is a slam on.Thanks for the suggestions. Yes 3S was a typo, sorry. I agree that a slower approach could work out much better, but I was not that confident of our methods, nor that they were any good, as you point out. We could spend a day before the next major outing on 2C alone! I did (wrongly) jump to the conclusion that partner had to be 4-2-3-4 or 4-2-4-3 for 2S (or perhaps five spades). If partner had bid 3C over the double, I would have been much more confident of slam. I am not sure 2NT would have got the job done, as I would have assumed that if he then bid 3C that would just be another 4-card suit. Lots of room would not necessarily have been of much use to us without methods! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted February 14, 2017 Report Share Posted February 14, 2017 I'll just join the chorus that his hand is an ugly 12 count, so many dead heart cards, the doubt should be between setting in game or inviting slam. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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