silly - normal - excellent

[luckyloser]

♠A98765

♥9876

♦5

♣K5

 

RHO opens 2♦ (normal weak two in ♦). It is Matchpoints, You are green they red. Should you stick in a ♠bid or await developments?

Would you consider a 2♠bid as silly, normal or excellent?

[Tramticket]

♠A98765

♥9876

♦5

♣K5

 

RHO opens 2♦ (normal weak two in ♦). It is Matchpoints, You are green they red. Should you stick in a ♠bid or await developments?

Would you consider a 2♠bid as silly, normal or excellent?

 

If opponents'are pre-empting, we should aim to bid constructively rather than making a pre-emptive noise. This hand is not a constructive 2♠ bid.

[gszes]

there are so many bad things that can happen if we bid 2s it is scary.

1. how do we ever shut partner up if they have a great hand.

2. we might end up missing a great heart fit to play an iffy spade fit.

3. do we really want to encourage a spade lead if the opps get to 3n?

4. not vulnerable does not mean invulnerable.

 

it is not just the above but honestly if lho makes preemptive noise how high would u be willing to bid if partner passes? I would back in with 3/4 spades over 3/4 diamonds and never have a worry about partner going insane because they expect me to "have something". P is there to help protect us so let them do their job and not take actions merely because the pass card looks worn and disease covered. The range of a 2s bid becomes so huge, if you bid now with hands like this, that there is no sanity left and a tiny preempt completely maesses with your partnership bidding.

[Kaitlyn S]

Silly. LHO might bid 3NT and partner could double thinking that LHO is psyching.

[TylerE]

The problem with bidding 2♠ here is that the hands where we make game we end up in at least 6, if not 7.

[inquiry]

Seriously??

[Phil]

Ben!!!!!!

[mlbridge]

Since this hand is not worthy of a 2 spades opening in any seat, not sure why one would want to overcall 2 spades. Especially since you have a 4 card heart suit.

[msjennifer]

My question is what would one bid if RHO had passed.?Do the same now and PASS.! This hand is certainly not worth over calling at 2 level.

[rhm]

The problem with bidding 2♠ here is that the hands where we make game we end up in at least 6, if not 7.

Why would we end up in 6♠ if partner holds ♠Kxxx ♥x,♦xxx ♣Axxxx?

Give partner another ace and we do have slam, hard to reach I admit.

As long as we have a spade fit I am not worried should partner bid slam on his own, unless partner is a beginner at this game.

But then, I am always worried until dummy comes down. :P

 

My judgement tells me that bidding 2♠ is surely a long term winner as long as we have a major suit fit, even though partner may expect another king in my hand.

And chances are we do have a fit.

I wonder what the passers will do when next hand raises diamonds maybe to the 4 or 5 level. .

It is matchpoints and passing at these colors 2♦ is more risky than bidding 2♠.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[rhm]

Since this hand is not worthy of a 2 spades opening in any seat, not sure why one would want to overcall 2 spades. Especially since you have a 4 card heart suit.

Few good players would pass at these colors, certainly not in third seat favorable.

You are playing Bridge espoused 50 years ago.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[rhm]

there are so many bad things that can happen if we bid 2s it is scary.

1. how do we ever shut partner up if they have a great hand.

2. we might end up missing a great heart fit to play an iffy spade fit.

3. do we really want to encourage a spade lead if the opps get to 3n?

4. not vulnerable does not mean invulnerable.

Reminds me of the person, who stays in bed for fear of getting overrun by a bus.

It happens.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[nullve]

My judgement tells me that bidding 2♠ is surely a long term winner as long as we have a major suit fit, even though partner may expect another king in my hand.

And chances are we do have a fit.

I wonder what the passers will do when next hand raises diamonds maybe to the 4 or 5 level. .

It is matchpoints and passing at these colors 2♦ is more risky than bidding 2♠.

The passers are less likely to find partner with a major suit fit?

[rhm]

The passers are less likely to find partner with a major suit fit?

First of all 2♦ might get passed out. LHO is not obliged to raise.

Of course should LHO raise to whatever level your chances having a fit increased.

This does not mean it is safer to come in at a high level.

And should your partner have a broken heart suit, say ♠x ♥KJxxx ♦xxx ♣Axxx, I wonder how you will proceed over diamond raises.

Delayed spade bids will not improve your chances finding hearts.

Of course if you reopen with a double partner might have 3 spades and responds in clubs.

The bidding might go (2♦) pass (4♦) pass pass 4♠ (DBL).

Good luck!

 

Rainer Herrmann

[helene_t]

I am not worried about missing the heart suit unless maybe if LHO bids 5♦ but in that case pass won't help find our heart fit either.

 

Anyway, this hand is nowhere near strong enough. Give me another ace and I would bid. Give me another king and we can discuss it. Give me another queen and I wouldn't but probably some sane people would.

[msjennifer]

♠A98765

♥9876

♦5

♣K5

 

RHO opens 2♦ (normal weak two in ♦). It is Matchpoints, You are green they red. Should you stick in a ♠bid or await developments?

Would you consider a 2♠bid as silly, normal or excellent?

A 2S bid is not silly but it is not normal either!Someone who wants to fool his partner may bid 2S.It is a NASTY bid.

[msjennifer]

Few good players would pass at these colors, certainly not in third seat favorable.

You are playing Bridge espoused 50 years ago.

 

Rainer Herrmann

Yes!And there are 18 others (till now) who are doing the same.95% are are still playing in 1967 ,HAHA!

[mycroft]

I think Rainer is discussing whether they would *open* this hand 3rd favourable, not whether they would overcall a 2♦ preempt - probably because you said you would pass it.

 

My only question, pass-pass to me is whether to bid 2 or 3 spades.

 

After pass-2♦, I am much more concerned. Partner with a good fit will hang me, partner without a good fit will be putting down dummy in 2♠x. Yes, that could score well; it's hard when both sides preempt the strong hand, never mind one of them. But I would think that I would need to have agreements about bidding after passed-hand, preempt that I do not have to bid here, as partner will take me for a *good* opener.

[rhm]

I think Rainer is discussing whether they would *open* this hand 3rd favourable, not whether they would overcall a 2♦ preempt - probably because you said you would pass it.

 

My only question, pass-pass to me is whether to bid 2 or 3 spades.

 

After pass-2♦, I am much more concerned. Partner with a good fit will hang me, partner without a good fit will be putting down dummy in 2♠x. Yes, that could score well; it's hard when both sides preempt the strong hand, never mind one of them. But I would think that I would need to have agreements about bidding after passed-hand, preempt that I do not have to bid here, as partner will take me for a *good* opener.

Sorry, given the conditions, white against red at matchpoints, I would overcall 2♠.

I am not claiming the overcall could not backfire, but I strongly believe it will gain more often than it will loose.

The hand has a high ODR ratio.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[miamijd]

I'll assume RHO was in first seat, because if he was in second seat you have an easy pass, and if he was in third seat, either his partner or yours needs some glasses.

 

It's closer than it looks, because you are short in diamonds, but let's think about this for a minute.

 

If you pass, the only really bad thing that could happen is that LHO gets to play 2D. That is not apt to be good for our side. Well, we have 7 HCP, and the weak two-bidder also has about 7. So there are 28 for the other two hands. If you pass, chances of this hand getting passed out are very small indeed. Someone is going to bid. If that someone is partner, then you can respond accordingly.

 

If you pass and RHO bids 3D, passed back to you, I think I would try 3S white v red. Partner will know what's up from your failure to overcall 2S.

 

So yes, I'd pass, but if my hearts were Qxxx, I'd bid 2S.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[Kaitlyn S]

Reminds me of the person, who stays in bed for fear of getting overrun by a bus.

It happens.

 

Rainer Herrmann

I don't think that's a valid argument. After all, you could say the same thing about me not wanting to open 7NT without looking at my cards because of all the bad things that could happen (it's scary!)

 

1) They could cash the ♠A

2) They could cash the ♥A

3) They could cash the ♦A

4) They could cash the ♣A

etc.

 

I thought his list of bad things that could happen were quite reasonable and the chance of one of those bad things happening was pretty good; unlike the chance of getting overrun by a bus which, I can tell you by experience being a likely candidate as a result of my eyesight, is pretty low.

 

That being said, I agree that you couldn't keep me quiet in third seat after two passes with that hand, even at equal vulnerability.

[fourdad]

never preempt a preempt

[rhm]

I thought his list of bad things that could happen were quite reasonable and the chance of one of those bad things happening was pretty good; unlike the chance of getting overrun by a bus which, I can tell you by experience being a likely candidate as a result of my eyesight, is pretty low.

All the risks he mentions exist. But different to you I do think they are pretty small. That's why I made the comparison.

 

there are so many bad things that can happen if we bid 2s it is scary.

1. how do we ever shut partner up if they have a great hand.

Why would I want to?

I gave examples of hands previously, which shows that the sky is the limit, once we have a fit.

Just to remind you I would find it pretty difficult to reach 6♠ even after overcalling 2♠ when partner holds something like ♠Kxxx ♥x ♦Axx ♣AQxxx and this is not an exceptional "great hand".

Of course partners hand need not fit ours so well, but the potential of our hand is quite high. If our admittedly few HCP were quacks I could understand the point.

By the way partner can see the vulnerability as well.

 

2. we might end up missing a great heart fit to play an iffy spade fit.

This is a fallacy. This an argument for overcalling 2♠ not for passing.

As I pointed out in previous emails your chances missing hearts increase when you pass compared to bidding 2♠, in particular when next hand will raise or jump raise diamonds.

If partner has enough to come in with a heart overcall over your pass, he will come in over a 2♠ overcall.

The opposite does not hold.

If partner is too weak to come in over pass from you he might still bid once you show values with an overcall.

 

3. do we really want to encourage a spade lead if the opps get to 3n?

I see little wrong encouraging a spade lead. Of course as usual there will be deals where another lead will be better.

But given this hand I think suggesting spades looks right not wrong. Partner is still allowed to look at his hand before putting a spade on the table against 3NT.

Whatever the merits there will be many deals, where a spade will be required against 3NT. Do you expect one from partner if you pass?

 

4. not vulnerable does not mean invulnerable.

A very good point, but appropriate for some other hand on some different deal.

The irony is that his last point is quite appropriate for his own strategy:

 

it is not just the above but honestly if lho makes preemptive noise how high would u be willing to bid if partner passes? I would back in with 3/4 spades over 3/4 diamonds

Now if partner has no spade support good luck!.

 

The major danger I see:

As always when you come in with substandard HCP the deal could be a misfit with partner having just enough to suggest game in notrumps.

I bet against that outcome.

 

As I said previously overcalling 2♠ can backfire, but my whole point is that I believe passing here has higher risks than bidding.

Vulnerability and scoring have a profound effect on this.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Tramticket]

There is another potential problem. Next time the opps pre-empt 2♦, you will hold a chunky 17 count and bid 2♠. It would be a shame if partner passed - making allowances for your super-light overcalls over a pre-empt.

[rhm]

There is another potential problem. Next time the opps pre-empt 2♦, you will hold a chunky 17 count and bid 2♠. It would be a shame if partner passed - making allowances for your super-light overcalls over a pre-empt.

I never said he should.

Compare it to opening bids.

They got lighter and lighter over the last half century.

But the puzzle is requirement for a response also got lighter.

 

Sometimes you will just not make your contract, but this is not necessarily the end of the world.

It does happen, but not too often, because few opponents keep quiet either, when you and partner are minimum.

Also your undertricks in white may still translate into a good score or you may have overbid, but you find a lucky lie of the cards or you may get some help from opponents. Meckwell and co make a living form that.

 

It is as simple as that. It is a bidder's game.

 

Rainer Herrmann