Competing over their Weak NT

[Phil]

IMPs

 

Tough pair and you are nv vs vul.

 

J92

A3

QJ85

A753

 

1N on your right (11+ - 14) as dealer. I assume you pass.

 

2H (to play) on left passed back to you.

 

Get in now?

[ggwhiz]

I'm in for a double but I'm hoping to defend 3♥ more often than buying it.

 

VERY marginal in that it feels like a win or lose 5 imps shot most of the time.

[TMorris]

Always bid here

[awm]

I'd double. I tend to treat this a lot like the auction 2h-pass-pass; opponents can have "almost game" values but they can also have around 13-14 points so the range is quite wide (opponents cannot really be much weaker in the preempt auction assuming partner normally bids in direct seat with 15+). They normally have at least a seven card fit in both auctions (rare exceptions).

 

Obviously doubling isn't safe (in either auction) but seems percentage.

[Zelandakh]

I'm in for a double too. Partner might even be sitting there with a weak NT and ♥KQJx so I feel acting is fairly clear. :unsure:

[rmnka447]

Consider this, if the opponents had played Strong NTs and the bidding had gone

 

1 m - P - 1 ♥ - P

1 NT - P - 2 ♥ - P

P - ?

 

What would you do with this hand?

 

I proffer this because that essentially is the situation you are in except the bidding was different because of the weak NT. The only differences are that you have less information now than in the suggested auction to consider and there's a lower bottom limit (i.e., zero) to the point count that responder could have.

 

Close decision for me, but I'd probably double also.

[Phil]

Consider this, if the opponents had played Strong NTs and the bidding had gone

 

1 m - P - 1 ♥ - P

1 NT - P - 2 ♥ - P

P - ?

 

What would you do with this hand?

 

Id suggest that the auctions are quite different.

[Phil]

I'd double. I tend to treat this a lot like the auction 2h-pass-pass; opponents can have "almost game" values but they can also have around 13-14 points so the range is quite wide (opponents cannot really be much weaker in the preempt auction assuming partner normally bids in direct seat with 15+). They normally have at least a seven card fit in both auctions (rare exceptions).

 

Obviously doubling isn't safe (in either auction) but seems percentage.

 

I doubled too. Partner got carted out with 8xxx JTx K9 Jxxx.

 

It seems most of the time this is a part score skirmish. Competing seems to turn a small minus into a plus most of the time but there are tails where we might either make a game or get hammered.

[mycroft]

That has always been the big plus of the weak NT. There will be hands where you are put to the test immediately, and There Is No Right Answer. And when you're right, you might (in a Strong NT field) just be getting back to average (from either direction), or you might not be right enough, or you might still be behind in the partscore battle. When you're wrong, you're -50 into +120 (or +100 into +420); or +110 into (a potential) +200; or, as in this case, -500 into -140.

 

Frankly, we get more numbers our way than we give up with the "dangerous weak NT"; and the numbers we give up are 300s and 500s at most, not the "numbers" they talk about. However, what we get are 5s, 8s. and 1100s (probably because we don't sit for penalties as often as we should).

 

The weak NT is going to bite you sometimes. Suck it up, and go on to the next hand. Know that the weak NT is going to gift you sometimes as well, just like any other preempt. In the mono-strong-NT culture around here, your gifts (and bites) are frequently going to come from the other hand being on opening lead from the field leading to +/- one trick. I know that the numbers are more memorable.

 

And having said all of that, I would have doubled. I would have lost. Oh well.

[Winstonm]

IMPs

 

Tough pair and you are nv vs vul.

 

J92

A3

QJ85

A753

 

1N on your right (11+ - 14) as dealer. I assume you pass.

 

2H (to play) on left passed back to you.

 

Get in now?

 

Considering that even when partner holds a 4-card suit outside of hearts that 67% of the time it will be a minor then we can easily be competing at the 3 level with substantially less than half the deck in high cards. There is no reason to assume that opponents do not hold 21-23 or slightly more HCPs. When our best hope is that partner holds 4 spades* and we can compete in the Moysian if may be we need to tamp down on the brakes a little?

 

*My view takes into account that partner will pre-balance in this auction with a good 5-card or longer spade suit. KQJ8x, xx, Kxxx, xx is worth a prebalance in my view.

 

The whole question of how to balance against a weak NT is quite worthy of full discussion in a tight partnership.

[akwoo]

I'd double unless partner (by explicit or implicit agreement) was a very aggressive pre-balancer. My general rule at IMPs is the following: Is there some reasonable chance that both contracts will make? In this case, the answer is yes; as partner has a 5 card suit, you're at LOTT, with no serious indications you should be law-deficient.

[mycroft]

Opener has 12. I have 12. LHO has 5 hearts, and probably no more than 10 high. Partner has 5-14, possibly more. There's no reason to assume that you do not hold 21-23 or slightly more - possibly even game-going - HCPs, in fact it should be pretty much a tossup.

 

I don't know where this auction - and I've had it a *lot* of times (we now play transfers, but still) says the opener's side has the majority of the HCPs. As I said last time, There Is No Right Answer. When you pass, partner has a 4432 13-count and 2♥-2 is a horrible result (or it's an okay result, but 2♥X-2 would win the event for you). When you double, you catch partner with 5-rag.

 

This is why many people play an immediate double of a weak NT as "equal strength". I think they're Wrong, and I have many great results to prove it; partner doesn't know when to defend opposite a 12-18 (or more) X, and frequently can't find the right level to play at when they pull. But they do it so that they don't have this problem this round.

[rmnka447]

That has always been the big plus of the weak NT. There will be hands where you are put to the test immediately, and There Is No Right Answer. And when you're right, you might (in a Strong NT field) just be getting back to average (from either direction), or you might not be right enough, or you might still be behind in the partscore battle. When you're wrong, you're -50 into +120 (or +100 into +420); or +110 into (a potential) +200; or, as in this case, -500 into -140.

 

Frankly, we get more numbers our way than we give up with the "dangerous weak NT"; and the numbers we give up are 300s and 500s at most, not the "numbers" they talk about. However, what we get are 5s, 8s. and 1100s (probably because we don't sit for penalties as often as we should).

 

The weak NT is going to bite you sometimes. Suck it up, and go on to the next hand. Know that the weak NT is going to gift you sometimes as well, just like any other preempt. In the mono-strong-NT culture around here, your gifts (and bites) are frequently going to come from the other hand being on opening lead from the field leading to +/- one trick. I know that the numbers are more memorable.

 

And having said all of that, I would have doubled. I would have lost. Oh well.

 

Well struck! I'll just add a couple additional thoughts.

 

I'll also attest to a similar experience in 40+ years of playing weak NT with my favorite partner. IMO, the biggest myth is the "big" risk of going for big numbers in 1 NTx. If the weak NTers are reasonably adroit at running out of 1 NTx, the big numbers are pretty rare.

 

One area where the weak NT loses is sometimes playing 1 NT when 2 of major makes on a 4-4 fit as there is no way to find the fit after 1 NT.

 

OTOH, still playing old fashioned penalty doubles by responder after a weak NT, we've gotten skads of +300 to +1100 sets when opponents walked in with poor overcall hands. It may seem counterintuitive, but you need more solid values to step in directly over the weak NT than a strong NT.

 

One final thought, one place where the weak NT also gains is that it becomes more difficult for the opponents to bid 3 NT when it's right after a weak NT is opened.

 

I'm not trying to advocate playing weak NTs, but trying to provide some of my experiences to go along with Mycroft's comments for those who might have to contend with the weak NT.

[aawk]

Because 2♥ was to play, partner didn't gave a take out double and you have a bad 12 HCP with 8 LTC I would pass in IMPs play and double in MP play.

[mcphee]

It is tempting to dble except that we only have 3S. LHO may have 8 or less hcp. perhaps 9. Do we feel our side could hold enough to give game a shot? If we double maybe we can collect 200 or more if pard passes. While these ideas are possible it looks risky to me. For example if your RHO opened 1H and your dbled and it went P P back to you, surely you would not consider bidding again. In my view there is no reason to place your side at risk over a part score. If they go down I will be delighted to take it in hundreds.

[Zelandakh]

For example if your RHO opened 1H and your dbled and it went P P back to you, surely you would not consider bidding again.

You do not see a difference between these 2 auctions? :o

[msjennifer]

If 2H is to play then I shall first ask them what are their 2C/2D after their partner opens an11/14 NT.?A lot of information can then be obtained about the 2H bidders hand and accordingly one can decide whether to make a penalty double assuming "this and that" with ones partner.Since no clarification has been given except " to play" an answer given sometimes when trying to hide some information and mislead the opponents,and since it is an IMP event I shall always PASS firmly rather than playing in a 3/4 miserable 2Sx contract and going down the river.I f the 2H contract goes down there will not be many IMP loss at all but if it scores then right away it is handing a gift of 12(twelve) IMP to them.Well! I certainly, am against doubling with this "defensively poor " holding..How many tricks can I score barely 3 only ,perhaps only 2.Do the doublets expect partner to provide 4 defensive tricks.? If the spade and heart holdings are changed to Jx,Axx even then it is a big bit adventurous to make a penalty double( or shall I say

a 'cooperative double' if you like it that way ?)

[Zelandakh]

If 2H is to play then I shall first ask them what are their 2C/2D after their partner opens an11/14 NT.?A lot of information can then be obtained about the 2H bidders hand and accordingly one can decide whether to make a penalty double assuming "this and that" with ones partner.

"To play" means 5+ hearts and less than invitational strength, the equivalent of transferring and passing. This is most commonly matched with either Double-Barelled Stayman or normal Stayman and 2♦ as a weak takeout (ie also "to play"). I am not sure how this information really helps us in terms of making a decision though.

 

Noone sane plays penalty doubles here though so I am not exactly sure what you mean with that part of the post.

[msjennifer]

"To play" means 5+ hearts and less than invitational strength, the equivalent of transferring and passing. This is most commonly matched with either Double-Barelled Stayman or normal Stayman and 2♦ as a weak takeout (ie also "to play"). I am not sure how this information really helps us in terms of making a decision though.

 

Noone sane plays penalty doubles here though so I am not exactly sure what you mean with that part of the post.

Sir,what you are saying is ,pardon me almost correct.I do not treat this 2Hx double as penalty double.I ,humbly,request you to go through the next few lines.We will never double holding such a hand even as a informative,or cooperative or action or balancing ,whatever it is known as .I sincerely hope that you agree that a pair after such an auction lands in 2Sx or a 3level minor doubled contract and pays heavily instead of silently losing minus 110 but losing practically nothining as its an IMP event.We have never lost taking this action of PASS .There are many ifs and buts about partners hand but one thing is certain that he does not have a decent 5+ card suit with a smattering of 10/11 HCP with which he most easily could have bid knowing fully well that 2H is a shut out bid.As regards, your explanation of 2C/2D bids goes well but still there is no harm if one gets a confirmation from the opponents.

[ggwhiz]

I'm not trying to advocate playing weak NTs, but trying to provide some of my experiences to go along with Mycroft's comments for those who might have to contend with the weak NT.

 

I played weak NTs for a year only to learn how to play against them because Kokish et al were just down the road and frequent opponents.

 

Kokish once said that the real strength of them was when you opened something else, I guess assuming some lost part score battles and good opponents that compete against it effectively vs. the efficiency of showing unbalanced hands? In those days passing partners weak NT promised some values, never alerted or disclosed and 4th chair often stepped in when they shouldn't.

[rmnka447]

I played weak NTs for a year only to learn how to play against them because Kokish et al were just down the road and frequent opponents.

 

Kokish once said that the real strength of them was when you opened something else, I guess assuming some lost part score battles and good opponents that compete against it effectively vs. the efficiency of showing unbalanced hands? In those days passing partners weak NT promised some values, never alerted or disclosed and 4th chair often stepped in when they shouldn't.

 

Kokish, of course, was right. The big gain was over 1 m openers which have a higher percentage of strong (15+) hands. Some minimum sounding sequences are redefined as stronger to reflect this different reality. As a result, there was a gain in some game bidding accuracy and especially minor slam bidding.

[rmnka447]

If 2H is to play then I shall first ask them what are their 2C/2D after their partner opens an11/14 NT.?A lot of information can then be obtained about the 2H bidders hand and accordingly one can decide whether to make a penalty double assuming "this and that" with ones partner.Since no clarification has been given except " to play" an answer given sometimes when trying to hide some information and mislead the opponents,and since it is an IMP event I shall always PASS firmly rather than playing in a 3/4 miserable 2Sx contract and going down the river.

 

Some weak NTers choose to use transfers, preferring to have the lead into the strong hand.

 

Other simply bid 2 M to play with 5+ M cards and less than invitational values. In predominantly Strong NT regions, this simple bid keeps the contract in line with the field where most openers are bidding 1 m and responders are bidding 1 M followed by 2 M over opener's rebid. Nothing's "hidden", it's just that the nature of the auction gives you less information.

 

In our case, 2 ♣ is plain ordinary Stayman. But 2 ♦ is artificial start of a 2 suited takeout (August 2 ♦) of NT which is normally a run out, but can be up to game going values when 5-5 in the majors. Don't know how much that would help in deciding to what to do with a 2 M bid though.

[dave_beer]

It is close but two things sway me to pass: I have only 3-card ♠ support and I have ♥Ax. If I had a 4th ♠ or ♥xx and an ace someplace else I would double.

[silvr bull]

Kokish once said that the real strength of them was when you opened something else

Another strong value of 12-14 NT openings is that it makes life difficult and risky for the opps (as shown in this thread) and easy for responder to know what to do. Opening 1m to rebid 1 NT with 12-14 balanced, in contrast, makes it easy for the opps to overcall, and difficult for partner to know what to do until opener can clarify his hand description.

 

passing partners weak NT promised some values, never alerted or disclosed

I see no more reason to alert responder's pass (after a 12-14 NT open) as showing some values than to alert that I am more or less sane when I sit down to the table. Just as I would not pass with xxxx xxx xxx xxx after a 15-17 NT open (an automatic 2C takeout before LHO can double), I would not pass a 12-14 NT open with xxxx Qxx xxx Jxx. Getting out of 1 NT before the double is an obvious part of the game.

[Zelandakh]

Another strong value of 12-14 NT openings is that it makes life difficult and risky for the opps (as shown in this thread) and easy for responder to know what to do. Opening 1m to rebid 1 NT with 12-14 balanced, in contrast, makes it easy for the opps to overcall, and difficult for partner to know what to do until opener can clarify his hand description.

It is often written/said that a 1NT preempts both sides. The upside is above, the downside is when we play 1NT and the strong NTers have an auction like 1m - 1M; 2M - P. There are also effects on the other side of the coin too, with the SNT hands sometimes being a little awkward in competitive auctions. I think this last effect is the reason the SNT has generally won out in natural systems, even when I have personally always played WNT systems (Acol, strong club) and prefer them.

 

 

I see no more reason to alert responder's pass (after a 12-14 NT open) as showing some values than to alert that I am more or less sane when I sit down to the table. Just as I would not pass with xxxx xxx xxx xxx after a 15-17 NT open (an automatic 2C takeout before LHO can double), I would not pass a 12-14 NT open with xxxx Qxx xxx Jxx. Getting out of 1 NT before the double is an obvious part of the game.

How about x xxxx xxxx xxxx or xxxx x xxxx xxxx though? I think the vast majority of weak NTers (and SNTers for that matter) would pass this and use their runout system after being doubled but it sounds as though ggwhiz was playing (or playing against) systems where this was an automatic response.