barmar Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 Because all players' choices after an error are void when the Director has given incorrect information on the options after that error.]Do we know that he told the players that the IBer wouldn't be able to replace it with an equivalent call before asking his LHO whether he accepts the IB? At may not be technically correct, but many directors treat situations like this as two-part processes -- first they ask the next player if they'll accept it, then if it's not accepted they go to the IBer and tell them their options regarding the replacement call (and the corresponding implications). This came up last night at the club. My partner made a lead out of turn. The TD first asked declarer if he'll accept it. My partner did later ask me why the TD didn't tell declarer all the options he'll have regarding the penalty card if he doesn't accept it. I told him that directors often do this to avoid giving declarer a confusing array of implications all at once. That's probably wrong, although in this case declarer was one of the most clueless players in the club, so his head probably would have been spinning if the director tried to follow the complete procedure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pran Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 Do we know that he told the players that the IBer wouldn't be able to replace it with an equivalent call before asking his LHO whether he accepts the IB? At may not be technically correct, but many directors treat situations like this as two-part processes -- first they ask the next player if they'll accept it, then if it's not accepted they go to the IBer and tell them their options regarding the replacement call (and the corresponding implications). This came up last night at the club. My partner made a lead out of turn. The TD first asked declarer if he'll accept it. My partner did later ask me why the TD didn't tell declarer all the options he'll have regarding the penalty card if he doesn't accept it. I told him that directors often do this to avoid giving declarer a confusing array of implications all at once. That's probably wrong, although in this case declarer was one of the most clueless players in the club, so his head probably would have been spinning if the director tried to follow the complete procedure.That is a dilemma for any Director when the ruling depends on several choices (by NOS as well as by OS).He may feel that he should try to simplify matters for the players and not confuse them, but it is still a Director's error if it turns out that a player has been deprived of some of his rights because of insufficient information from the Director. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 This came up last night at the club. My partner made a lead out of turn. The TD first asked declarer if he'll accept it. My partner did later ask me why the TD didn't tell declarer all the options he'll have regarding the penalty card if he doesn't accept it. I told him that directors often do this to avoid giving declarer a confusing array of implications all at once Directors do this"often"? I guess I am just lucky that I have never encountered this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 No. I see no reference to 12C2 in 12C1d and no indication that the artificial scores assigned under 12C1d are limited to the narrow range mandated in 12C2. There is an implied cross reference between 12C1d and 12C2: 12C1d simply allows the Director to award an artificial adjusted score in certain situations. 12C2 specifies how the Director shall proceed when awarding artificial adjusted scores and it includes a reference to 12C1d to make it clear that 12C1d cases are indeed subject to this procedure. That's not how I read it. 12C2 specifies how to proceed when a result has been unable to be obtained. It also notes the existence of 12C1d, which applies in other situations, when a result has been obtained.Okay, Gordon, I'll bite. What is the procedure for awarding an artificial adjusted score under 12C1{d}, and where in the laws is it specified? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordontd Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Okay, Gordon, I'll bite. What is the procedure for awarding an artificial adjusted score under 12C1{d}, and where in the laws is it specified?No procedure needed, and I checked with one of my colleagues that I'm not a lone voice in this. You just award an artificial score but are not subject to the constraints of 12C2 so you could for example award 80/40 if you thought that reflected the numerous likely outcomes. In practice I've never encountered the need to do this as it's not usually necessary to award artificial scores in these cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 I see. Why then does 12C2 refer to 12C1{d} in the way that it does? Will the "disconnect" between 12C1{d} and 12C2 be clearly identified in the new laws? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordontd Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 I see. Why then does 12C2 refer to 12C1{d} in the way that it does? Will the "disconnect" between 12C1{d} and 12C2 be clearly identified in the new laws?I would have thought it was to distinguish between the two different situations. But prompted by your post I've looked at the new laws and see that a reference to 12C2 has been added to 12C1d, so perhaps I'm wrong. It doesn't seem to me to be completely unambiguous though, but I doubt either of us is ever going to be in a situation where it matters! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axman Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 No procedure needed, and I checked with one of my colleagues that I'm not a lone voice in this. You just award an artificial score but are not subject to the constraints of 12C2 so you could for example award 80/40 if you thought that reflected the numerous likely outcomes. In practice I've never encountered the need to do this as it's not usually necessary to award artificial scores in these cases. I am inclined to see blackshoe's view as so strong that this view has no merit. 12C2 gives the parameters for the range of art scores such that when a (different) law specifies an art score it is important to look to 12C2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve2005 Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Why isn't the actual hand posted? Then you can make an educated guess as to possible outcomes instead of guessing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 An educated guess may be better than an uneducated guess, but it's still a guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 An educated guess may be better than an uneducated guess, but it's still a guess.True, but the law says the TD is supposed to try. We resort to the artificial adjusted score only when we determine that this isn't feasible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted January 20, 2017 Report Share Posted January 20, 2017 Also true. B-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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