Pull 3N?

[Jinksy]

[hv=pc=n&s=s6543hajt8dajt74c&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=p1d(Unbalanced)2c3np]133|200[/hv]

 

IMP teams. Your 1D promised an unbalanced hand.

 

1) Do you agree with the opening?

2) Do you bid 4♣ (or something other than pass) now?

[Phil]

If i didnt play an unbalanced diamond I might want to pull but not now.

 

Partner knows we open this air, and knows we probably have short clubs. If partner was interested in a major hed x the previous round. My only real concern, is those crappy spades but they havent led one yet.

 

Show a little faith!

[sfi]

1) Yes

2) No

 

What other target are you aiming at when you pull? 3NT should be playable at least.

[alok c]

1)Yes

2)No as partner jumped to 3nt knowing my unbalanced hand with probable short ♣suit.

[MrAce]

1-Yay

2-Nay

[Kaitlyn S]

I'll join the unanimous panel 1) Y 2) N

[Tramticket]

No, I probably wouldn't have opened (but I wouldn't be upset if partner took the opposite view - its close).

 

Having chosen to bid, I now pass.

[Jinksy]

Here are the four hands

 

I decided not to pull for the reasons given above, but 3N had almost no play, whereas 4♥ will make if hearts are 3-3 and at least one diamond honour is onside. Should E have done something different, or is this just rub of the green? It's hard to believe he can stop short of game once I've opened, and while Axxx isn't an ideal NT stop, trying to reach a suited game with that texture seems like trying to stop on a pinhead.

[ggwhiz]

I don't like the 3nt bid at all and would choose 3♣ which when followed by 3nt does permit partner to pull.

 

Four of either major has a play and so does 5♦ which is my much more likely -1 landing spot.

[tony stack]

1. If I were to open the hand, the opening bid given would be the best one possible and most of time I would make this bid

2. I would not pull the contract toward anything else after the bidding given as it appears the points will work in the given direction and I have no extra length in any suit of interest.

 

Not sure If I held partners hand If 4 to only the ace was quite enough to goto interest in no-trump when the opponent overcalled that suit; this could be a decent challenge to bid out, but with points for just short of game, this might be the hand to sit for 2 clubs after the reopening double by opener.

 

But once partner chooses to show interest in no-trump rather than try for a Major; to then try for a Major suit game in a 4-3 fit with the Likely Ruffing coming from the hand with 4 trump, is not a good thing in most circumstances.

[wank]

4c doesn't show a hand that's worried about going off in 3nt. It's strong.

 

Partner should start with a double.

[Winstonm]

Pass. When partner bids 3N in this auction he isn't asking for my input.

[MrAce]

Pass. When partner bids 3N in this auction he isn't asking for my input.

 

That is incorrect.

Pd is telling you he has 13-15 hcp and stopper in their suit.

It is not possible for him to know whether you opened with 11 or 21 hcp, or with 5431 or with 6520 shape, thus he can not possibly be the deciding person.

I pass with the hand in OP, but this is not because pd told me to pass.

[wank]

I don't agree with that. 3nt should show a hand which is more suited to nt play than a random 13-15 bal with no major.

 

Axxx is pretty unsuitable and anti-positional in so far as hands with a stop go.

 

There's the entire 2+3 level to play with. There's no prize for getting to 3mt in the fewest possible bids when they already know what to lead.

[MrAce]

I don't agree with that. 3nt should show a hand which is more suited to nt play than a random 13-15 bal with no major.

 

Axxx is pretty unsuitable and anti-positional in so far as hands with a stop go.

 

There's the entire 2+3 level to play with. There's no prize for getting to 3mt in the fewest possible bids when they already know what to lead.

 

I have no idea what you disagree with.

 

Do you disagree that 3 NT is a limit bid? I hope not.

Do you disagree that responder bidding 3 NT does not mean "I do not want your input"? I hope not.

 

3 NT is a limit bid, with stopper in their suit. I would not do it with Axxx. You would not do it either. But regardless of what you and I would do as oppose to what someone else do, 3 NT is still a descriptive bid and that description has almost everything in it except than "I do not want your input" message to opener. I hope you do not disagree that either.

 

I voted for not pulling up. It is not because opener does not need my input, it is because I have no idea whether anything else will be a better spot even if I knew pd bid it with Axxx.

[Winstonm]

That is incorrect.

Pd is telling you he has 13-15 hcp and stopper in their suit.

It is not possible for him to know whether you opened with 11 or 21 hcp, or with 5431 or with 6520 shape, thus he can not possibly be the deciding person.

I pass with the hand in OP, but this is not because pd told me to pass.

 

I have never used 2nt as anything but artificial in this sequence, hence the jump to 3NT is not needed to show 13=15 as you suggest.

[MrAce]

I have never used 2nt as anything but artificial in this sequence, hence the jump to 3NT is not needed to show 13=15 as you suggest.

 

Defending what you said is worse than the comment itself.

Whatever you play 3 NT, it is a descriptive bid and NEVER can mean something like "I do not want your input" unless 1♦ was limited like in precision. Even then there are hands that opener can reopen.

You can play 3 NT whatever you want it to be. What you seem to not understand is that opener can have a 10 hcp hand as in OP, or can have a 21 hcp, or he can have 17 hcp and 7-4 hand. "He did not want my input" is the most unfortunate way to explain regardless of what you pay this 3 NT vs a 11-21 opener.

Descriptive bids describe a hand and gives the captaincy to the non described hand. They never can imply a message as you said. It is like Lesson 1, basic 1, day 1 in bridge, sorry!

[wank]

Defending what you said is worse than the comment itself.

Whatever you play 3 NT, it is a descriptive bid and NEVER can mean something like "I do not want your input" unless 1♦ was limited like in precision. Even then there are hands that opener can reopen.

You can play 3 NT whatever you want it to be. What you seem to not understand is that opener can have a 10 hcp hand as in OP, or can have a 21 hcp, or he can have 17 hcp and 7-4 hand. "He did not want my input" is the most unfortunate way to explain regardless of what you pay this 3 NT vs a 11-21 opener.

Descriptive bids describe a hand and gives the captaincy to the non described hand. They never can imply a message as you said. It is like Lesson 1, basic 1, day 1 in bridge, sorry!

 

i was meaning that i think 3NT should be more descriptive than just '13-15 bal with a club stop' which is what i thought you said the first time, i.e. it should show a more no-trumpy hand and most likely a more robust holding than the one actually held. evidently i misunderstood you.

[Winstonm]

Defending what you said is worse than the comment itself.

Whatever you play 3 NT, it is a descriptive bid and NEVER can mean something like "I do not want your input" unless 1♦ was limited like in precision. Even then there are hands that opener can reopen.

You can play 3 NT whatever you want it to be. What you seem to not understand is that opener can have a 10 hcp hand as in OP, or can have a 21 hcp, or he can have 17 hcp and 7-4 hand. "He did not want my input" is the most unfortunate way to explain regardless of what you pay this 3 NT vs a 11-21 opener.

Descriptive bids describe a hand and gives the captaincy to the non described hand. They never can imply a message as you said. It is like Lesson 1, basic 1, day 1 in bridge, sorry!

 

If a pair opens 10 point hands and bids 3N in this auction with 13 and Kxx or Axx of clubs, they will get poor results over time. With bidding room, a double jump should mean something more specific than a random NT hand. Personally, I think 3nt in the auction should show strong control of the over-called suit, double stop, and the NT hand because there are other ways to bid the other type hand. In my estimation, it is a mistake to ignore opponents over-calls in our subsequent bidding, especially NT as the opening lead is so critical to success or failure of NT contracts.

 

If you simply bid 3NT with Axx or Kxx of clubs in this hand you create an impossible problem for opener, which was the OP question.

[Trinidad]

Just my $0.02. To me 3NT means: "I don't want your input, unless you have a special type of hand (usually slemmish)."

 

I don't have a special type of hand, so with this hand (and many others) partner shouldn't expect any input from me.

 

Rik

[ggwhiz]

Just my $0.02. To me 3NT means: "I don't want your input, unless you have a special type of hand (usually slemmish)."

 

After a weak 2 by them, double by us we play 2nt as lebensohl and if you follow that up with 3nt you show some doubt, ie. game values but a single or tenuous stopper in their suit (QTx type or Ax/Kx with softish cards). The slower route to 3nt via a 3♣ cue shows the same doubt for us here and the leap to 3nt most definitely does not.

[rmnka447]

No, I wouldn't open this hand.

 

I wouldn't bid over 3 NT, either. 3 NT isn't seeking more information it's a signoff. Partner knows you have a an unbalanced hand with ♦. You don't have a clue what partner's hand is. Partner might be a little miffed if 3 NT doesn't work out because of feeling you opened a bit light, but that's another discussion. Better that discussion than trying to explain why you took a bid over 3 NT which makes and got some place that goes down.

 

It should be a part of partnership confidence that if partner makes an unusual bid or play, you trust your partner. In short, don't "save" partner.

[MrAce]

Deleted

[cherdano]

In my view the best description of 3NT here is "I have 13-15 hcp, and I believe 3NT is the right contract if you are minimum, even if you have shortness somewhere".

I find this quite a useful guide for many premature jumps to 3NT, even when opener is not known to be unbalanced.

[MrAce]

Just my $0.02. To me 3NT means: "I don't want your input, unless you have a special type of hand (usually slemmish)."

Rik

 

 

 

No, I wouldn't open this hand.

 

I wouldn't bid over 3 NT, either. 3 NT isn't seeking more information it's a signoff. Partner knows you have a an unbalanced hand with ♦. You don't have a clue what partner's hand is. Partner might be a little miffed if 3 NT doesn't work out because of feeling you opened a bit light, but that's another discussion. Better that discussion than trying to explain why you took a bid over 3 NT which makes and got some place that goes down.

 

It should be a part of partnership confidence that if partner makes an unusual bid or play, you trust your partner. In short, don't "save" partner.

 

 

 

Sign off?

 

Let me comment about the difference between sign off bids and descriptive bids (limited responses)

 

 

1 NT--3 NT = Sign off. 3 NT does not describe anything to opener, It decides where to play. This is the bid where 3 NT bidder does not need ANY input. There is no such a back pedalling like Rik did by following his sentence with "unless bla bla bla" here. 1 NT opener will pass, end of story. This is where one can use terms like "I do not want your input" or "sign off"

 

1♦---3 NT is a descriptive bid, a limit bid and regardless of your own chosen limit range for that 3 NT, It can not possibly decide to play 3 NT vs a very wide range 1 ♦ opener. Opener decides where to play the game or whether they play slam or grand slam.

 

In our example, 2♣ overcall makes this 3 NT to be more specific than just a balanced hand and a range. It also requires stopper in the opponent suit. As some people said here, which I agree, a stopper like Axxx is not what I expect from pd, But even if pd bids 3 NT with KQT9 stopper, he is not telling us "I do not want your input" or " I have all the info I need and I decided to play 3 NT" That is what opener will decide by looking at his own hand. The reason why me, wank and most of you want this 3 NT to require more about the enemy suit is to help opener decide more accurately when he knows that.