I Didn’t Vaccinate My Kids and the One Who Lived Turned out Fine

[mycroft]

BarmarOFH?

[onoway]

For what it's worth, and I expect to get flamed or whatever for this, I am very very reluctant to advise anyone to get their child vaccinated. I have a very strong conviction that anything that a company produces that is a) protected by the government from being held accountable for the impact it has and b) is extremely profitable for companies to produce and 3) has as far as I can see got very little current research being done on the efficacy or the long term side effects on either the vaccines alone OR the combination thereof is something to be extremely wary about.

 

I fail to see the wisdom of injecting aluminum, glyphosate ( now being used to replace mercury, which is still occassionally used) into very young children.I fail to see the urgency of now injecting children with some incredible number of vaccinations -in my day I believe we had 5, now it's in the hundreds, and somehow the population kept growing in spite of our lack of vaccinations. The original inspiration, that milkmaids never got smallpox was very different, the milkmaids were not getting the pox vaccine injected into their bloodstream, mixed with material known to be toxic to people. The severity of the disease is also of a different order of magnitude than that of measles, for instance.

 

Admittedly I am prejudiced, since I dutifully got my son vaccinated until a friend's healthy active child very nearly died after getting a dose of live vs killed vaccine, after which none of my kids got vaccinated for anything and they are all obnoxiously healthy. My son got measles, he got over it, like a minor case of the flu with spots.

 

There is actually a growing body of research suggesting that the sort of article above is the same sort of thing that was done around tobacco being good for you. A couple of links http://www.greenmedinfo.com/anti-therapeutic-action/vaccination-all to research and a blog from the same place regarding this question: http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/attacking-ourselves-top-doctors-reveal-vaccines-turn-our-immune-system-against-us

 

Anyone who wants to can wade through all those research articles.

 

One stat I found interesting though I don't remember where I read it is that the US vaccinates more than virtually any other country, but the incidence of illness is not lower. At all. In fact in health care the US is somewhere down around 17th in the world. If more vaccinations is the answer then why should that be so? And why are ads for flu vaccines saying things like, "most children who got the flu last year were not vaccinated." Most? why only MOST ? was the vaccine actually doing not anything at all and it was just random who got it and who didn't? Does anyone even know?

 

Aluminum, for instance, is generally accepted as being toxic to people, it's why it's used as a carrier. For those medical people here, just how much aluminum is safe for humans to have injected into them before it has a negative affect? Does anyone even know, percentage of body weight? How much of the reaction is to the carrier, aluminum or whatever, and how much to the actual vaccine? And is there a long term effect on combining a bunch of vaccines to be given at once, as there are sometimes interactions if certain drugs or even herbal concoctions are used?

 

Then there is the question of retroviruses which I admittedly don't really understand.But they are now acknowledged to be probably? possibly? there,they are potentially scary, and nobody much is talking about them, certainly not the pro vaccination people.

 

Bottom line for me though, is if the companies producing these things cannot be held accountable, then I'm not letting them inject it into my child's body. I wouldn't even buy a new coffeepot without expecting some sort of warranty, I get it home and it doesn't work, I am going to get my money back. If there is some sort of flaw in it and it blows up and takes off half my face, or burns down the house, then someone is going to be held accountable for putting out a defective product.

 

Why should less accountability be accepted for stuff we are injecting into immature immune systems, even babies? Money in that case is not the point, it is possibly a blighted life, as in the case of my friend's daughter, who had some ongoing issues even after she finally got out of hospital.

[hrothgar]

For what it's worth, and I expect to get flamed or whatever for this, I am very very reluctant to advise anyone to get their child vaccinated. I have a very strong conviction that anything that a company produces that is a) protected by the government from being held accountable for the impact it has and b) is extremely profitable for companies to produce and 3) has as far as I can see got very little current research being done on the efficacy or the long term side effects on either the vaccines alone OR the combination thereof is something to be extremely wary about.

 

Next time you want to launch into one of your sanctimonious lectures about evil corporations screwing people over to make profits and ignoring the common good, please recall that you are doing exactly the same thing.

 

Herd immunity is one of the most important reason that governments promote vaccination.

 

There are broad classes of people who can't take vaccines. (The elderly and the immuno-compromised being the two most obvious examples).

If the population at large is vaccinated then diseases aren't going to spread and the risk of contagion becomes trivial.

However, when significant numbers of idiots decide not to vaccinate their children it dramatically increases the risk for everyone else.

 

As a rule, I don't give a damn what you want to do to your kids. They don't deserve to die of rubella because their mom is an idiot, but I won't lose to much sleep over it if they do.

But the rank hypocrisy is really galling. (The ignorance, that I've come to expect by now)

[barmar]

Admittedly I am prejudiced, since I dutifully got my son vaccinated until a friend's healthy active child very nearly died after getting a dose of live vs killed vaccine, after which none of my kids got vaccinated for anything and they are all obnoxiously healthy. My son got measles, he got over it, like a minor case of the flu with spots.

Your kids are likely healthy because just about everyone else got their kids vaccinated, so there are no serious diseases running rampant in the community. If they don't encounter others with the diseases, they can't catch it.

 

But it doesn't work if too many people take your attitude, because if group immunity gets too low, it allows an inroad for the disease into the community.

 

Do you really deny that we effectively eradicated polio because of vaccines?

[mike777]

If the goal is to reduce the human population and save HOLY, Sacred planet Earth, if the goal is to reduce the control mankind has over Mother planet Earth then this sounds like a good first step.

 

OTOH if the goal is to consume planet earth's resources so mankind or whatever humans evolve into so that we can move out into the universe, perhaps not.

[onoway]

Next time you want to launch into one of your sanctimonious lectures about evil corporations screwing people over to make profits and ignoring the common good, please recall that you are doing exactly the same thing.

 

Herd immunity is one of the most important reason that governments promote vaccination.

 

There are broad classes of people who can't take vaccines. (The elderly and the immuno-compromised being the two most obvious examples).

If the population at large is vaccinated then diseases aren't going to spread and the risk of contagion becomes trivial.

However, when significant numbers of idiots decide not to vaccinate their children it dramatically increases the risk for everyone else.

 

As a rule, I don't give a damn what you want to do to your kids. They don't deserve to die of rubella because their mom is an idiot, but I won't lose to much sleep over it if they do.

But the rank hypocrisy is really galling. (The ignorance, that I've come to expect by now)

Did you actually bother to look at any of the research or is this just knee jerk reaction to something you disagree with? Talking about herd mentality...

 

It would be nice to think that people were able to consider that there is an outside possibility that maybe, just maybe, something which worked well for smallpox may have been taken and turned into something not so benign for diseases not anywhere near as virulent and dangerous.

 

A little of something is good, then more must be better is a mantra which resonates with people but isn't necessarily true at all.

 

IF vaccinations are the road to health, then why isn't the US population healthier than that in the rest of the world, instead of being arguably among the least healthy of the developed countries? You spend more than any other country per capita, much more than some countries, so what's going on?

 

Seems to me that unless people are willing to consider what's going on then it's only going to get worse.And looking to consider what's gone wrong involves looking at EVERYTHING that's changed, NOT assuming that pet theories, well supported by carefully managed public relations campaigns, are above scrutiny.

 

Aren't the predictions that the generation now entering kindergarten will be the first generation we are aware of predicted to have shorter life spans than their parents? The rise of autoimmune diseases has gone through the roof with no sign at all of slowing down. So rather than expecting people to wither in your totally unimpressive scorn, why not come up with a rational explanation, supported by independent research, instead of parroting the mantra of anyone who has concerns about vaccinations is an idiot.

[mycroft]

According to Alberta, routine vaccinations are for:

• Diptheria
• Tetanus
• Whooping Cough
• Polio
• Bacterial Meningitis
• Rotavirus
• Pneumonia
• MMRV (Measles, Mumps, Rubella (German Measles) and Varicella)
• Hepatatis B
• HPV

Of that list, only the last wasn't a major killer of children (major killer in general, for many of them) for centuries. Breakouts of Whooping Cough are coming back after 50 years of being scare stories. The last seems to be a major cause of several kinds of cancers (or could be some really good marketing, or both). Other provinces may vary. I was surprised to see Tuberculosis not on this list - Wikipedia says it's only for high-risk people, as it's basically unknown (now) in Canada-US-UK.

 

"not anywhere near as virulent and dangerous". Nope. Right now, they aren't. But *only because* most people are immunized against them.

I lived in Ontario when a Meningitis outbreak - 3 people! - hit. One died, if I remember correctly. They immunized 30% of the population in response.

[olegru]

Hi onoway,

Could you please clarify if you are " very reluctant to advise anyone to get their child vaccinated" at all, or you are in doubts about some of new proposed vaccinations?

I agree that parents should not hurry to test on their babies all new available vaccines, but I have very strong feeling that there are some well proven vaccines against some very serious illnesses that must be used.

You do not have to take a vaccine against season flu, but without a medical reason do not vaccinate kids against (for example) hepatitis B or measles is a borderline crime by my opinion.

[onoway]

As far as Polio is concerned, this article... with references to studies published in Lancet and other such publications, is I think quite interesting. http://www.thinktwice.com/Polio.pdf

[mike777]

Hi onoway,

Could you please clarify if you are " very reluctant to advise anyone to get their child vaccinated" at all, or you are in doubts about some of new proposed vaccinations?

I agree that parents should not hurry to test on their babies all new available vaccines, but I have very strong feeling that there are some well proven vaccines against some very serious illnesses that must be used.

You do not have to take a vaccine against season flu, but without a medical reason do not vaccinate kids against (for example) hepatitis B or measles is a borderline crime by my opinion.

 

 

Not sure what a "borderline crime" is. I mean it is a crime or it is not.

 

In any case Onoway is clearly saying vaccines are deadly, vaccines cause harm, great medical harm.

 

Also to be fair over the years general medical errors worldwide have caused harm, great medical harm to millions.

 

"...Medical errors rank behind heart disease and cancer as the third leading cause of death in the U.S., Johns Hopkins researchers say. ... Based on an analysis of prior research, the Johns Hopkins study estimates that more than 250,000 Americans die each year from..."

[onoway]

Having known many people who had measles when I was a child, and having had them myself, and never having known anyone who had any untoward long term affects from it, or even anyone who knew or had even heard of anyone with any long term issues from having had the measles, it's very difficult to understand the panic around it. My son got it, my daughters never showed any symptoms at all of catching it from him or anyone else. They may have had it and had no symptoms because they had very healthy immune systems or who knows? But it certainly makes it difficult to imagine that anyone who isn't vaccinated is going to run the risk of dying if they come into contact with someone with it, since 2 of the three kids in the house never showed any sign of getting it.

 

So, it seems to me that making sure the kids have healthy immune systems is more important than shooting them with toxic substances to make sure they stay healthy, that's an idea that basically seems flawed to me. If the vaccines didn't use poisons as adjuvants then perhaps it wouldn't be as questionable...but then you still have questions about retroviruses from the source used to culture the virus in question.

 

As far as HepB is concerned, this is the list of people for whom this is recommended:

The hepatitis B vaccination is recommended for:

 

Those who may be exposed to blood or blood products through their occupation:

Healthcare workers who may have contact with blood or body fluids.

Laboratory staff.

Carers of high-risk or known patients.

Morticians and embalmers.

Police and fire and rescue workers.

People travelling to or going to reside in areas of high or intermediate prevalence, particularly travellers with pre-existing medical conditions, who may be at higher risk of requiring medical procedures abroad.

Those individuals who change sexual partners frequently, particularly commercial sex workers.

Injecting drug users. Also:

Partners and children of injecting drug users.

Non-injecting drug users who live with injecting drug users.

Individuals and staff in residential accommodation for those with learning difficulties.

People receiving regular blood or blood products - for example, those with haemophilia or chronic anaemias.

Prisoners and prison officers.

Family contacts of those with chronic hepatitis B infection.

Families adopting children from high-risk countries.

Foster carers.

Those patients with chronic kidney disease or chronic liver disease.

Prevention measures to be taken

Prevention of transmission

Measures to be taken include:

 

Practise safe sex.

Avoid sharing intravenous drug equipment.

Immunise at-risk individuals.

Wear gloves when exposed to blood or body fluids.

Clear up blood or body fluids, using warm water and detergent.

Ensure surgical instruments are disposable or adequately sterilised.

Handle 'sharps' safely.

Wear goggles if there is risk of infected material splashing into the eye.

Do not permit healthcare workers who are positive for hepatitis B antigen to work in areas where they could be a risk to others.

 

So clearly if an infant is born to a sex worker or drug addict or is going into a home situation where HepB is possibly an issue, then it is probably very appropriate. But otherwise, how many of the above apply to a newborn?

[StevenG]

Having known many people who had measles when I was a child, and having had them myself, and never having known anyone who had any untoward long term affects from it, or even anyone who knew or had even heard of anyone with any long term issues from having had the measles, it's very difficult to understand the panic around it

http://who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

[Cyberyeti]

Having known many people who had measles when I was a child, and having had them myself, and never having known anyone who had any untoward long term affects from it, or even anyone who knew or had even heard of anyone with any long term issues from having had the measles, it's very difficult to understand the panic around it. My son got it, my daughters never showed any symptoms at all of catching it from him or anyone else. They may have had it and had no symptoms because they had very healthy immune systems or who knows? But it certainly makes it difficult to imagine that anyone who isn't vaccinated is going to run the risk of dying if they come into contact with someone with it, since 2 of the three kids in the house never showed any sign of getting it.

 

Well one case in every 5000 is fatal, and it can cause meningitis/encephalitis or make you go blind

 

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Measles/Pages/Complications.aspx

[onoway]

I was interested in the measles being included in the list above so looked it up and the world Health Organization has one comment I found significant ( among others, admittedly I was not aware how severe measles could be)

 

Severe measles is more likely among poorly nourished young children, especially those with insufficient vitamin A, or whose immune systems have been weakened by HIV/AIDS or other diseases.

 

So severe measles, is basically a complication of poverty, and so while vaccinations do little to address the cause they will help prevent one of the symptoms of poverty. That's not insignificant, and I will look into it further.

[mycroft]

I got my information from http://www.health.alberta.ca/health-info/imm-routine-schedule.html - http://healthycanadians.gc.ca/healthy-living-vie-saine/immunization-immunisation/children-enfants/schedule-calendrier-eng.php will give you the relevant site for other provinces. Note that there are no "vaccinations at newborn" - they start at 2 months.

 

Specifically for HepB, in Alberta, vaccination is only in Grade 5 (approx age 9) - same dose set as HPV, so probably a convenient time. How many in Grade 5, In our rich world, have gone or are going on vacation to a place where there's a high risk of Hepatitis? How many are children of intravenous drug users? How many are children of teachers, or people in the health care industry, or emergency response, or lab techs? Oh and I hate to mention it, but things start happening around age 9 that might increase the chance of being involuntarily involved in (likely non-safe) sex.

 

No, I'm sure *your* family doesn't fall into any of those categories. Nor does mine (well, my aunt is a nurse, but I and mine don't go over there often). But it's more than you or I think.

[hrothgar]

Did you actually bother to look at any of the research or is this just knee jerk reaction to something you disagree with? Talking about herd mentality...

 

I didn't bother to look at the "research" because I recognized the website, I know who Sayer Ji is, and I know enough not to waste my time looking at anything that he is selling...

 

The fact that you would cite his lunacy as "research" tells me all that I need to know...

[Trinidad]

As far as Polio is concerned, this article... with references to studies published in Lancet and other such publications, is I think quite interesting. http://www.thinktwice.com/Polio.pdf

Anybody can write an internet article with references to The Lancet, Nature, Science, or the Bible, for that matter. It doesn't say anything about the value of the internet article.

 

Rik

[Zelandakh]

As far as Polio is concerned, this article... with references to studies published in Lancet and other such publications, is I think quite interesting. http://www.thinktwice.com/Polio.pdf

I read as far as the first major claim, that polio cases has sharply increased after the introduction of vaccination, and had a quick look for some statistics. The wiki page is quite clear in its statistics and these are backed up by the other sites that I found:-

 

Soon after Salk's vaccine was licensed in 1955, children's vaccination campaigns were launched. In the U.S, following a mass immunization campaign promoted by the March of Dimes, the annual number of polio cases fell from 35,000 in 1953 to 5,600 by 1957.[62] By 1961 only 161 cases were recorded in the United States.

 

Would you care to explain the difference? If the article is simply stating untruths as its basis, it is pointless to go further into it.

[Vampyr]

In many countries, children are admitted to school without proof of vaccinations. This is a very poor policy, and mandating vaccinations would virtually eliminate free riders.

[diana_eva]

The policies probably depend on how high the risks are. I saw in a previous post here that in Canada there's no mandatory vaccine at birth. In Romania there are two: HepB in the first 24 hours and BCG (tuberculosis) at 2 to 7 days. These are administered in the hospital and although they are called mandatory, the parents have to sign and consent to the vaccines. They do have the option to refuse vaccine.

 

Next vaccines are done via the family doctor and/or in school. Each time parents are asked to sign and agree. That's why despite the mandatory vaccine list parents still have the possibility to say no, and some do.

 

 

However you can't get your kid in any kindergarten or school without the vaccination proof. Actually, it seems you can get the kids in school without vaccine proof at the moment. I was asked to bring proof every time and assumed it was mandatory. Apparently it's not (it's highly recommended, but there's no law saying the school should refuse your kid if not vaccinated). You need to bring the medical record of your child, and a paper from the family doctor stating that the child is apt for community integration.

Edited January 22, 2017 by diana_eva

[kenberg]

I read as far as the first major claim, that polio cases has sharply increased after the introduction of vaccination, and had a quick look for some statistics. The wiki page is quite clear in its statistics and these are backed up by the other sites that I found:-

 

 

 

Would you care to explain the difference? If the article is simply stating untruths as its basis, it is pointless to go further into it.

 

This brings to mind a contrast. As a youngster in the early 1950s I have a vivid memory of the fear of polio. I went swimming in a public pool (at Highland Park) but people seriously worried about the danger of polio. When the Salk vaccine came out the only question was "How soon ca we get it?" By contrast, this was also the time when fluoridation of the public water supply was attacked by some as a Communist plot, and this claim had its believers, although I don't think I knew any of them. The difference is this: Fluoridation was advertised as helping prevent tooth decay, the Salk vaccine was advertised as preventing polio. If you get a cavity you can go to the dentist and get it filled, if you get polio the consequences are huge.

 

Things are rarely simple. I seem to recall some issues with the Salk vaccine that had to be addressed. But I took it, and so did everyone else.

 

This contrast between how people thought about the Salk vaccine, very positive, and how they thought about fluoridation, some skepticism, might be a clue to why some react as they do to vaccinations. As a kid, I had measles. So did every other kid I knew. We understood that measles has its dangers and we stayed quiet at home until it passed. No kid that I knew had any long term after affects. Now think about autism. As a kid, I didn't know anyone who had autism, or so it seemed. Measles is easier to diagnose than autism, so we have to take this lack of observed autism with a grain of salt. But today autism is a big issue. And it is a lifelong condition. So just think about it for a moment and I think you can see someone pondering: "Hmm. Without the vaccine, my kid may get measles. With a little care, this passes in two weeks and that's it. With the vaccine, he might get autism and this could be a lifelong problem. I think I will pass on the vaccine."

 

I don't agree with that thinking, but it does not take much imagination to see how someone could go down that road. Quite possibly, although I really have not studied it, the case for vaccine is strong enough to justify overruling parental judgment and requiring it for all children attending public schools. Or for all kids period. I am then ok with doing this. I do think that every effort should be made to explain to parents why society at large believes that the evidence is sufficient to justify this. So do it, but take the concerns seriously would be my view. If you come in and tell a parent :I know best, you must do as I say" then you are responsible for the result.

[gwnn]

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Medical_Veritas

 

Welcome to Medical Veritas. The Journey of Truth in Medical Science.

[barmar]

I read as far as the first major claim, that polio cases has sharply increased after the introduction of vaccination, and had a quick look for some statistics. The wiki page is quite clear in its statistics and these are backed up by the other sites that I found:-

 

Would you care to explain the difference? If the article is simply stating untruths as its basis, it is pointless to go further into it.

The article claims that at the same time as the vaccine came out, the medical community also changed the definitions of polio and related diseases. As a result, many people who previously would have been diagnosed as having polio were diagnosed with aseptic meningitis or coxsackie virus instead. So the statistics for polio went down, but the actual number of people suffering didn't.

 

This is somewhat similar to the increase in autism in the past few decades. Some say that the incidence hasn't really increased much, it's just that doctors have gotten better at recognizing it (many autistic children would previously have been considered mentally retarded), and also related conditions like Asperger's have been lumped together under the "austism spectrum".

 

I have no idea how true their claim about polio is. But when comparing statistics across time, we have to make sure we're comparing the same things.

[Zelandakh]

The article claims that at the same time as the vaccine came out, the medical community also changed the definitions of polio and related diseases. As a result, many people who previously would have been diagnosed as having polio were diagnosed with aseptic meningitis or coxsackie virus instead. So the statistics for polio went down, but the actual number of people suffering didn't.

But this is not what the paper says. It provides a graphic stating that the numbers of polio cases goes up strongly after vaccination is introduced. I am not inclined to believe a non-peer-reviewed paper that starts off with a huge lie, even if it tries to back away from it later on by claiming that it did not really mean what it stated.

 

I also did a quick check into aseptic meningitis and there was great interest in the US during the late 50s and early 60s in isolating the echovirus 30, so cases were being reported. The evidence suggests that this was not a major player during that time and unlikely to be the cause of large numbers of earlier polio cases. That echovirus 30 reached epidemic status from 1968 is true though with nearly 3000 cases being reported. Over a third of these were in California, where it was indeed shown that some cases of aseptic meningitis were being misdiagnosed. Most likely some cases were therefore also diagnosed as polio prior to vaccination but it seems a major leap to take from that that vaccination was ineffective given the statistics that we have.

[mycroft]

I believe there are places where you "have to show proof of vaccination" where you can also show "proof that vaccination will be harmful to this child" (immunodeficient, transplant, allergic to compound, et al). However, I don't think there are many where "proof of vaccination" is actually required (unless harmful) due to legal challenges and celebrity spokesscarers.