Epic misunderstanding

[LanderBG]

Hello i had this deal some time ago. I was playing on a table with three named Experts and met the current deal.

Now i look at the deal and asking my self who made the worst bid.It was like domino effect.Once started could not be stopped.The dissaster....a big one. :)

 

East oppened quiet 2♥, South overcalled 2♠, West passed with the idea to dbl later, and North passed becouse he is weak.East overcalled 3♥??, than South dbld thinking it is for penalty, West redoubled fort takeout, and than North thinking dbl of South is for takeout in diamonds and clubs, and rdbl of West is serious bid 4♦.South tried to fix things rdbling ♦ and that was the final contract.Almost every bid here deserve 1st place for worst one.Which one would you chose ? :)

 

 

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sjt643hak54dcak63&w=sak987hdat9652ct9&n=sq2h962dj8743cq74&e=s5hqjt873dkqcj852&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=2h2spp3hdr4dppdpprppp]399|300[/hv]

[ggwhiz]

I have a 6 way tie for 1st but suppose that 3♥, the 1st double and both redoubles stand out.

[eagles123]

the whole thing is a bit of a joke of course, but Easts 3H bid is just classic beginner bidding.

[MrAce]

The worst bid is to call them experts. Other than that...

 

3♥ is very bad but it actually led to winning ***** loads of imps or mps.

 

Double of 3♥ is also very bad but at least he thought it was penalty so he has a logic (a bad one) behind it.

 

Redouble of 3♥ has no logic behind it if it was meant for take out as you said. Take out to what? To spades? And when you have 1 suit that you can play outside the ♥ suit, it is diamonds. Either bid it or pass. Or redouble for business, not for take out.

 

South's redouble of 4♦ is a joke.It is obvious that pd thought his 3♥ double was take out. If he did not figure this out when doubling, he should figure it now. Thus redouble for take out now is even worse than his first double.

[sfi]

The only truly bad call, in the sense that it shows a poor understanding of evaluation, appears to be 3H. Others seem to be internally consistent with what they thought was going on, although I don't have much sympathy with either redouble.

 

You can get these sort of results when people are playing without agreements. They are unfortunate, but calling them bad bids is probably not accurate.

[mycroft]

I would go with "2♥ is a good call, 2♠ is at least arguable, and North's first pass seems unremarkable. Apart from that, we start with 'hideous' and go from there."

[MrAce]

 

You can get these sort of results when people are playing without agreements. They are unfortunate, but calling them bad bids is probably not accurate.

 

Lack of agreements and lack of logic are different things. What we see here is the latter.

But I agree that calling them bad bids is not accurate since that would be an insult to bad bids.

[sfi]

Lack of agreements and lack of logic are different things. What we see here is the latter.

But I agree that calling them bad bids is not accurate since that would be an insult to bad bids.

 

Take the double of 3H and the 4D bid. One of them must be reasonable if N-S had agreements.

 

Similarly, the redouble of 3H and 4D. The second could have been avoided had North asked about the redouble. But I can't imagine that happened.

 

If I had to take the place of one person at the table and weren't allowed to ask about the meaning of any bids, I think North did ok.

[msjennifer]

When partner bid 2S then if North did not wish to play 3Hxx ( which goes three down on a normal defence) then with QX in partners suit he could just have bid 3S.Except the 2H and 2S bids all the remaining bids were horrendous to say the least.The playes ,who labelled themselves so, were not experts but,to say jokingly,World (Cl) ASS.

[661_Pete]

I've heard of the 'rescue redouble' (at least, that's what we called it in my day) but have tried to avoid using it - rather a dangerous call as the above hand exemplifies!

 

One very common scenario (well - commoner than the above) where it might be used is in the sequence 1NT - (X). You are sitting opposite partner's balanced 12-14, with a rubbish hand but some length in one of the minors - clubs say. It's happened to me. What do you do? Assuming I have no side entries, I don't want to leave partner in 1NTX. Far less 1NTXX :blink: . Unless I have a convention that might help here. Say I have long clubs? I bid 2♣ - if partner interprets as Stayman I revert to 3♣ which will probably be understood...

 

Can't help out with the above deal. Seems freakish by all measures.

[LanderBG]

the whole thing is a bit of a joke of course, but Easts 3H bid is just classic beginner bidding.

The deal is very real :) I just sit at the table and this was the first deal.After that my partner run away and we were 23 imps behind :) LOL

I was sitting North i admit.I do not like my 4♦ bid because if my partnter is 5-0-4-4 how i imagined i can pass the rdbl and wait for him to bid again.3♥ and dbl for penalty was also very bad bids in my oppinion.rdbls ....what to say about it :)

 

 

 

[Joe_Old]

Which is the worst bid? So many bids, so little space.....

 

3♥ is a standout to me and Mr. Ace is on target about the other bids, but this example illustrates two problems with online bridge: 1) lack of basic agreements as to what common bids mean and 2) difficulty is getting coherent replies (or any reply at all) when asking for an explanation from an opponent.

 

Aside from the obvious problems with inexperienced players claiming to be experts, even good players can inadvertently blindside their partner when a treatment common in one part of the world is not played elsewhere (western cue anyone?). It can be frightening to watch ACOL and Standard American players clash. Truscott (1M X 2NT = limit raise or better) might be the least recognized bid on BBO. I can't think of a simple answer other than laugh off the occasional misunderstanding and move on to the next board.

 

Getting an explanation of a bid is usually difficult, often because of language barriers. I'd like to see a lot more self-alerts (to opponents only) and announcements at the beginning of a round as to general system and carding.

 

Playing online with pickup partners does have the very beneficial effect of making me appreciate my regular partners a LOT more.

[Zelandakh]

Your partner has an IMP average of +0.01, yours is -0.05, East is -0.29 and West -0.55, all in general (not high-level) play, so it is clear that the standard at the table was low-mid intermediate regardless of how you all choose to self-rate. The worst call is probably 3♥ but it was also successful. The rest, as has been pointed out, is too influenced by differing agreements to judge. One thin I do see is that your partner left at the end of the hand - perhaps some words were exchanged. I would advise not recanting the story if that were the case though, as they are not here to defend themselves and it goes against the site rules. And for the record you lost 21.87 IMPs on the deal but I guess making a slam on the following board was at least a little compensation. ;)

[GrahamJson]

The first two bids are ok, but as for the rest....

 

If I had to choose I think I would go for west's redouble as being the worst. East's 3H is awful, but does at least have the merit of telling his partner that he is a poor player. This should alert West to avoid any bid that could be misconstrued, as the redouble clearly could be. Even if East knew that the redouble was for rescue, why would you want to do so opposite a partner who has bid to the three level on his own and you hold three top tricks? In fact I struggle to think of any occasion when a redouble above the level of two can be SOS.

[Winstonm]

The worst bid is when you bid for the open seat at this table. :P

[mycroft]

Why, but why, but WHY did West not hit 2♠? I know, it meant throwing away thousands of points on the real auction, but that's only because...

 

Yes, I know, either he thinks it's negative for the minors or he thinks partner will think that, and he's hoping to just take his plus and go on to the next hand. Pickup partners, "best possible result", et al. Given East's actions on the actual auction, he's probably right.

 

Playing standard, 3♥ is almost a Partnership Limiting Move independent of the hand, and that's assuming partner has something close to his bid (AKQJxx? QJT9xxx? "found a card"?) I don't care that we ended up with +3400; partner will give all that back and more in short order.

[hrothgar]

Why, but why, but WHY did West not hit 2♠? I know, it meant throwing away thousands of points on the real auction, but that's only because...

 

 

I was about to make the same point. West's pass over 2♠ strikes me as the worst bid.

 

I am also not fond of 4♦. If you are going to pull 3♥XX, I think that 3♠ is a better choice than forcing the auction to to 4 level with no guarantee of a fit

[aawk]

The first round (2♥-2♠-p-p) is ok.

 

3♥ is wrong because you never should bid your weak hand twice. Pass was east bid.

 

The double is penalty can't be take out because you started with a overcall. Double was ok.

 

The redouble was (or should be) SOS for both minors. Pass was west bid.

 

North rather trust the opponents than his partner or thought his partners double was take out. Pass was his bid.

 

The meaning of the redouble on 4♦ was SOS but should be business. Pass was your action.

 

So the conclusion is all players made mistakes and the question remains in what north, east and west are experts.

[MrAce]

Why, but why, but WHY did West not hit 2♠? I know, it meant throwing away thousands of points on the real auction, but that's only because...

 

 

I was about to make the same point. West's pass over 2♠ strikes me as the worst bid.

 

 

1- Passing 2♠ is probably one of the best bids at the table. I would definitely pass 2 ♠.

 

2-West does not see the S hand as you guys do.

 

3-There is a good chance that, when you were defeating 2♠ you may actually help them to find a club fit, which they could NEVER find without the help of 2 ♠ penalty double.

 

4-You change one little card between E and S and they make 2 ♠ doubled.

 

5-You make the wrong lead such as ♦A, they make 2 ♠ doubled in this original hand.

 

6-You make the right lead and make a mistake at T2, they make 2♠ doubled in this original hand.

 

7-You make the right lead and then make the 2nd right move and then make a reasonable mistake during defense, they make 2 ♠ doubled in this original hand.

 

8-Even if you were allowed to look at South hand during the auction, and even if you were allowed to defend double dummy, not doubling a part score for one down, can hardly be considered as the worst action. In fact you may get a field zero or lose many imps for doubling too early in some cases.

 

 

At MP yes, but at IMPS I would never dare to double a good card player at that low level to turn +100 to +200, because that is what you will get most of the time if you do everything correct on lead and defense. Of course we assume 2♠ is where they will want to stay after our penalty double.

[LanderBG]

Your partner has an IMP average of +0.01, yours is -0.05, East is -0.29 and West -0.55, all in general (not high-level) play, so it is clear that the standard at the table was low-mid intermediate regardless of how you all choose to self-rate. The worst call is probably 3♥ but it was also successful. The rest, as has been pointed out, is too influenced by differing agreements to judge. One thin I do see is that your partner left at the end of the hand - perhaps some words were exchanged. I would advise not recanting the story if that were the case though, as they are not here to defend themselves and it goes against the site rules. And for the record you lost 21.87 IMPs on the deal but I guess making a slam on the following board was at least a little compensation. ;)

 

My partner left, yes.But id not care about that. It was interesting deal and i wanted to share without the idea someone to defend his or her self.And well i think that you statistic is not measurement of strength of players. I do not have time to check other players but my results were +0.8 some months when playing with regular partners more often and - 0.05 as you pointed when playing only random partners for few deals.That is why BBO refuses to make players ratings system.

 

 

 

[Phil]

I dont ever recall seeing two SOS xx's in the same deal. By different sides.

[miamijd]

First round of bidding is normal enough:

2H and 2S were certainly normal.

 

I would probably X 2S at MPs (gotta get that +200), but at IMPs pass seems clear (don't want to be -670). Who knows; maybe N-S will get in even worse trouble.

 

North's pass of 2S is automatic.

 

Now we get to some odd actions on the second round:

East's 3H is just awful. Generally when you preempt, you don't bid again unless partner asks you to. An exception would occur on this hand if West had something like:

 

x QJTxxx x KQxxx

 

Now a 3C reopening bid has a lot of merit (risky, to be sure, but normal enough).

But with most hands, including the one West had, you don't bid again.

 

South's X is odd, too. This is takeout, not penalty. Reverse the H and the D and it would be perfect. As it is, not so much.

 

As for West's XX, the only explanation I can think of is that he asked n/s about the X and was told "business." If West thought 3HX was for business, then it's kind of an old chestnut to XX, hoping that the opponents will get scared and run (hey, you're getting an awful board anyway, so there's a ton to gain and not much to lose).

 

Assuming N-S didn't have an agreement that X of 3H is penalty (a really odd agreement), then I think North's 4D bid is OK. West's XX of 3H ought to be for business at this point (where are E-W going to run?). N-S ought to have an 8- or 9-fit in D.

 

After that, however, N-S are in the stew.

[Mets fan]

My humble assessment is 2H fine. 2S questionable, but he felt he had to bid something. 3H unforgiveable. It violates partner trust to bid again, unforced on a pre-empt. 3h doubled looks like penalty to me. Otherwise, he is forcing vulnerable to the 4 level in the direct seat completely blind. That makes no sense to me. 3H redouble truly bizarre. How could an expert redouble a preemptive bidder who rebid his hand. Make the preemptive rebidder suffer the consequences. The run to 4 diamonds ridiculous. Let your partner run to clubs, and then you can correct to diamonds. The double of 4 diamonds is very sound, in context. Obviously there is table confusion, so with trump now decided in your suit, by vulnerable opps, double away!!!!!! The redouble truly foolish. bad to worse to worse to worse.

But, misunderstandings happen

[Stefan_O]

Hello i had this deal some time ago. I was playing on a table with three named Experts and met the current deal....

 

 

HAHAHA! SOME EXPERTS!! :D

[Jinksy]

Your partner has an IMP average of +0.01, yours is -0.05, East is -0.29 and West -0.55

 

How do you view that?