Help with Odwrotka-like relay

[Kungsgeten]

In our Swedish club structure (12-14 NT or 17+; excluding 17-19 NT and 17-19 with primary diamonds) we currently use the following rebids after 1C-1M:

 

1S = Natural F1. 5+ spades if strong. XY-NT continuation.

1NT = 12-14 NT.

2C = Natural without support, 17+.

2D = Odwrotka. 3+ support and 17+.

2M = 12-14 NT.

2oM = Natural without support, 17+. 1C-1H; 2S shows a good suit.

2NT = 20+ 4441 or balanced without support.

3C = 20+, 4+C and 5+D without support.

3D = 20+, 6+D without support.

3M = Undefined.

3oM = 20+, 5+D and 4oM without support.

Higher = Undefined.

 

I'm not very fond of the diamonds showing bids, and was thinking of incorporating Odwrotka into the 2C bid; making it show 3+ support or clubs. Then 2D would be natural 20+ without support. When playing Odwrotka we do the following:

 

1C-1M; 2D---

2H = 12+

Higher = 8--11

 

So my idea with the Odwrotka/clubs combination would be along these lines:

 

1C-1M; 2C---

2D = Waiting, 8--11.

...2H = Shows support, back to usual Odwrotka scheme.

...2S+ = Clubs without support.

2H = 12+.

...2S = Shows support, back to usual Odwrotka scheme.

...2NT+ = Clubs without support.

 

For responder's higher rebids I'm not quite sure, but have thought of the waiting bids denying a 6+ suit (we respond 1M to 1C with longer minor unless GF):

 

2S = 6+ major, 8--11.

2NT = 6+ major, 12+.

3C = 6+ clubs, 8--11.

3D = 6+ diamonds, 8--11.

 

This will all be fine when opener has the hand with support, but I'm not sure how the bidding should continue when opener has the club hand. Any suggestions?

[helene_t]

is your 2c rebid gf? if yes then it might work but I am still concerned about overloading. otoh the current solution obviously underloads it.

Presumably the 2d rebid covers 54mm hands also? then maybe it's ok.

 

There is a difference between a 1♥ response and a 1♠ response, btw. After 1♠, it can't be efficient to make 2♦ show diamonds and 2♥ show hearts. Hands with primary diamonds are quite specific (as they don't usually open 1♦ in the first place).

 

Maybe better to play

2♣=odwrotka or diamonds

2♦=clubs

[Kungsgeten]

Yes, the 2C rebid is game forcing. The 2D rebid would cover unbalanced handa with 5+ diamonds and 20+ hcp without support, so could be 54 or 55 minors). Swapping 2C and 2D could definitely work (and was my first thought).

 

I do not quite get what you mean in the second paragraph, sorry.

[helene_t]

I do not quite get what you mean in the second paragraph, sorry.

oops sorry I messed it up. Corrected now.

[kreivi68]

Just play normal 2D Odwrotka and put minor hands to 2C. Something like:

 

1C-1M; 2C = 5m

1C-1M; 2D = 3+ M support

1C-1M; 3m = one-suiter, 17-19

 

After 1C-1M; 2C you can bid natural 2M/3m (6 cards or 5-5) or relay with 2D:

 

2oM= 4M + longer minor

2M= both minors, 17-19

2NT= both minors, 20+

3m= one-suiter, 20+

 

 

Cheers, T.

[Kungsgeten]

Just play normal 2D Odwrotka and put minor hands to 2C. Something like:

 

1C-1M; 2C = 5m

1C-1M; 2D = 3+ M support

1C-1M; 3m = one-suiter, 17-19

 

After 1C-1M; 2C you can bid natural 2M/3m (6 cards or 5-5) or relay with 2D:

 

2oM= 4M + longer minor

2M= both minors, 17-19

2NT= both minors, 20+

3m= one-suiter, 20+

 

 

Cheers, T.

 

We used to do something like that, but moved away from it when we increased the range of our 1D opening. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to have a look at it again. We used the 2C rebid as 17+ with a two-suited hand with a 5+ minor (a jump to 3m was 17+ single-suiter). See Lakebeach 2C here.

[nullve]

Another idea, which should be possible to combine with Helene's switch idea: Exploit the similarity between the 1M response to a Swedish 1♣ opening and the 1M opening in the 4-card major system ("The Science"?) that the Hackett brothers used to play. Also, their 2♣ response looks a lot like your natural-or-Odwrotka 2♣. I don't know anything about their follow-ups after 1M-2♣, though.

[Kungsgeten]

We used to do something like that, but moved away from it when we increased the range of our 1D opening. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to have a look at it again. We used the 2C rebid as 17+ with a two-suited hand with a 5+ minor (a jump to 3m was 17+ single-suiter). See Lakebeach 2C here.

 

I've been thinking and an idea could be to put hands with 5+D and 4+C into the 2C rebid. Something like this:

 

1C-1M;

2C = 4+C, unbalanced. May have longer diamonds (if so then 20+ hcp).

3C = 5+D and 4oM, 20+

3D = 6+D, 20+

 

After 2C responder can relay with 2D or bid something natural.

 

1C-1M; 2C-2D;

2H = 5+C, minimum (about 17--19). May relay with 2S.

2S = 5+D and 4+C, 20+

2NT = 5+C and 4oM, 20+

3C = 6+C, 20+

3D = 5+C and 4D, 20+

3HS = ???

[Zelandakh]

I am not sure if I like that structure. The sequences look way too short of space for effective relay bidding. I looked at a couple of possibilities and I think you can improve the efficiency here by moving the 17-19 hands out to a more convenient spot. But after fiddling with it, it occurred to me that when going this route it might be better to take the 17-19 hands out earlier and combine the 20+ hands into the 2m rebids. I am not really familiar with your system but is there any reason we cannot (after 1♣ - 1M) do something like:

 

2oM = 17-19, 4oM

2N = 17-19, 3M

3♣ = 17-19, 6+♣, 1-suited

3♦ = 17-19, 4♦

3M = 17-19, 4M

 

Then it is just a matter of distributing the 20+ hands between 2♣ and 2♦, which should be easy. Actually that is too easy so there is probably a key hand type missed out... :unsure:

[Kungsgeten]

I am not sure if I like that structure. The sequences look way too short of space for effective relay bidding. I looked at a couple of possibilities and I think you can improve the efficiency here by moving the 17-19 hands out to a more convenient spot. But after fiddling with it, it occurred to me that when going this route it might be better to take the 17-19 hands out earlier and combine the 20+ hands into the 2m rebids. I am not really familiar with your system but is there any reason we cannot (after 1♣ - 1M) do something like:

 

2oM = 17-19, 4oM

2N = 17-19, 3M

3♣ = 17-19, 6+♣, 1-suited

3♦ = 17-19, 4♦

3M = 17-19, 4M

 

Then it is just a matter of distributing the 20+ hands between 2♣ and 2♦, which should be easy. Actually that is too easy so there is probably a key hand type missed out... :unsure:

 

Well, it is not really meant to be a relay structure (perhaps I misused the "relay" word), just that responder can make a "waiting" bid instead of making a natural bid, for instance:

 

1C-1S; 2C---

2D = Waiting (or relay, whatever you want to call it)

2H = 5-5 majors

2S = 6+ spades

2NT = Not sure, perhaps 4+ clubs and extras, or maybe 5-5 spades + diamonds.

3C = 4+ clubs

3D = 5-5 spades + diamonds (if not in 2NT)

 

Regarding our system I think you misunderstood the 1C opening. The 1C opening shows:

 

a) 12-14 NT without a five card major. We treat 4-4-1-4 as NT.

b) 17--19 with 5M332.

c) Any 20+.

d) 17--19 unbalanced with 5+H, 5+S or 5+C.

 

I tend to describe it as 12-14 NT or 17+, but we exclude 17-19 NT and 17-19 unbalanced with primary diamonds.

 

So what I'm suggesting is:

 

1C-1S (1S shows 4+S unlimited and is GF vs strong hand);

1NT = 12-14 NT, not 4S

2C = < 3 spades. Unbal 5+C 17+ or 4+C and 5+D 20+.

2D = 3+ spades, 17+

2H = < 3 spades. 5+H, 17+

2S = 12-14 NT, 4S.

2NT = 20+ NT with 2S or 1-4-4-4 20+.

3C = < 3 spades. 5+D, 4H, 20+.

3D = < 3 spades. 6+D, 20+.

Higher = Undefined.