Handling aggressive preempts

[phoenix214]

The title gives it away a bit, but what do you do in the following situation? 3C range is quite wide. Anyhow what is the best plan to progress on the hand?

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[wank]

double and convert 3S to 3nt and 3d to 3h.

[MrAce]

You can also start 3♥. This actually is a pretty ugly 19 after 3♣ bid.

[Phil]

You can also start 3♥. This actually is a pretty ugly 19 after 3♣ bid.

 

Yeah but the heart suit blows and its a good shape for x.

[gszeszycki]

x and intending to do nothing over any simple rebid by p (except raise 3h to 4h). Why this point of view with so much? It is because this hand is actually slightly WORSE than p expects you to have on average. Does that sound bonkers? Think about it lho passed p passed and rho preempted. Lho and p on average with have around 6.5 and the preempter probably closer to 8.5. So our average hand is around 18.5. P will know this and bid accordingly.

 

This is one of the main reason preempts work so well they force opps to rely more on averages than specifics.

[MrAce]

Yeah but the heart suit blows and its a good shape for x.

 

If ♥ suit is not good enough to overcall, it is not good enough to start DBL and bid 3♥ over 3♦, no?

If I start DBL, I may seriously think and probably pass over 3♦ or [3♠ response. Even over 3♥ response I may consider it. The hand is full of holes.

[Stephen Tu]

x and intending to do nothing over any simple rebid by p (except raise 3h to 4h). Why this point of view with so much? It is because this hand is actually slightly WORSE than p expects you to have on average. Does that sound bonkers? Think about it lho passed p passed and rho preempted. Lho and p on average with have around 6.5 and the preempter probably closer to 8.5. So our average hand is around 18.5. P will know this and bid accordingly.

This doesn't sound right at all. I ran some sims, after p p 3c preempt, our average hcp is around 15.5 hcp. Everyone else averages around 8.

It's only after looking at our 19 count that we know LHO and partner are weaker than average.

 

So partner with a 6/7 count has no idea whether we hold the extra values or if the opps are stronger than their averages, if opening bidder passed with say a flat 10/11 count. If he bids like we have 19 on average when in reality we only have 15.5, he's going to go down a lot.

[Phil]

If ♥ suit is not good enough to overcall, it is not good enough to start DBL and bid 3♥ over 3♦, no?

If I start DBL, I may seriously think and probably pass over 3♦ or [3♠ response. Even over 3♥ response I may consider it. The hand is full of holes.

 

Depends on your philosophy. If x then a new suit just says "I have a good hand with TO x shape and this is my long suit" then x is a good description.

 

 

If x and a new suit means "my hand was too good to overcall 3H" then perhaps not.

[rmnka447]

I'm bidding 3 ♥ and sitting for the fix, if it occurs. OTOH, partner is allowed to have a ♥ fit and we get to the right strain. If I double and get a minimum pointy suit response, I have no idea what to do other than pass. Then, we might end up in a 7 card fit rather than a perfectly good 8+ card ♥ fit. If partner instead finds a 3 ♠ call over my 3 ♥ overcall, then I can at least consider bidding 4 ♠.

[neilkaz]

I'm bidding 3 ♥ and sitting for the fix, if it occurs. OTOH, partner is allowed to have a ♥ fit and we get to the right strain. If I double and get a minimum pointy suit response, I have no idea what to do other than pass. Then, we might end up in a 7 card fit rather than a perfectly good 8+ card ♥ fit. If partner instead finds a 3 ♠ call over my 3 ♥ overcall, then I can at least consider bidding 4 ♠.

We agree except that I'd raise 3♠ to 4 on this sequence even if my Q♣ were the 2. They give a bonus for making game and if PD can volunteer 3♠ after my 3♥ I'll take my shot and yes I see that he passed initially.

[msjennifer]

Some thing strange.

[msjennifer]

With 17HCP,only five losers and a very decent heart suit ,I shall bid 3H and hopefully raise partners 3S to 4S.

[helene_t]

If I double, 3♥ over partner's 3♦ is ok, it shows a somewhat flexible hand with five-plus hearts so partner probably will rescue with a small singleton hearts. Hence it is safer than a direct 3♥ which partner will pass with any weak hand, probably even if doubled unless he has something extreme.

 

I think my plan is double and then pass 3♠ but bid 3♥ over 3♦. Second choice is double followed by pass of everything.

[geoffff]

Don't like 3H. Mainly due to the weakness below honours. If LHO has 4 hearts to 10 and 9, you could be completely undone. Hand is strong enough in points but shape is very poor.

[Caitlynne]

I am not sure why this hand is a problem for you. There are two obvious options - Double and 3H - from which to choose. Of these, Double is far superior inasmuch as the heart suit is modest and not worthy of emphasis, Double is more flexible, and you do have 3+ card support featuring at least two honors in all three unbid suits.

 

I will admit, this is not the best 19 HCP hand, but - and this is as important as it is obvious - it is a 19 HCP hand and you could easily have an Ace less for the Double.

 

So, if partner responds 3D, I think you can bid a slightly aggressive 3H (non-forcing but a very good hand). If partner responds 3H, you have enough to raise.

 

The more difficult questions are what to do if partner responds with either 3S or any game bid. If partner bids 3NT, your Qx of clubs looks better and you probably have enough to raise to 4NT opposite an unpassed partner; but since partner is a passed hand, you should certain call Pass as partner can't have the 13 HCP that would make slam a reasonable bet. But with 3S or any other game bid, I would go conservative and Pass, giving a nod to my bad/wasted honor values in my two loser club suit.

 

It is the 3S bid that is most worrisome because partner could have either xxxx, xxx, xxx, xxx or QTxxx, Qx, Kxxx, xx. Still, the latter hand is pretty specific and perfect, so a conservative Pass seems best to me.

[msjennifer]

" If LHO has four hearts to 10,9 you will be undone" is taking a totally negative attitude .Does it mean this hand is to be passed? I know a pessimist beginner who holding AKQJ109-AKQ-AKQJ-Void in 1st position started with a PASS.And he was so right ! Had he opened 7 Spades as the optimists bid at all the other tables he would have scored only the six trump tricks and gone seven down.Such ifs and buts means taking an overpessimistic attitude and must be discouraged.

[miamijd]

The title gives it away a bit, but what do you do in the following situation? 3C range is quite wide. Anyhow what is the best plan to progress on the hand?

[hv=pc=n&s=sak9hkj754daq6cq8&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=pp3c]133|200[/hv]

 

I can't fault X or 3h; either one is reasonable.

 

This hand isn't worth 19. The Qc is probably wasted, and indeed, it's worse than having xx, because the Qc are two HCP partner does not have. (If you had xx, partner would rate to have 1 more HCP than he does, and it might be useful). Also, any diamond and heart honors the opponents hold are likely to be badly positioned.

 

X is more flexible. Partner could have short hearts, and your fit could be in spades or diamonds. Partner also could be in position to bid 3NT or pass for penalties (unlikely with your Qx, but possible, especially if declarer opened a ratty six-bagger). And sometimes, partner will surprise you by bidding 3H (which you can raise to 4).

 

You'll have a decision to make if partner bids 3D or 3S over the X; I tend to favor a conservative pass with this hand, but I can see raising 3S to 4S (3D you should pass; 3H over 3D seriously overstates the strength of this hand).

 

3H is more boom or bust. If you have a game, you're more likely to reach it with the overcall; partner will strain to raise if he can, and if he has short hearts and a good hand, perhaps he can bid 3S or 3NT. But it's also the bid more likely to end up in disaster if partner has short hearts and nothing much to speak of.

 

I think I would X, but it's close.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[Winstonm]

Speaking of weak preempts, I've always thought it only fair that your convention card can change depending on the style of each new opponent in pairs - Fishbein against aggressive preempts may work better than takeout methods.

[mr1303]

I think X is right. If partner bids 3H I raise, else I pass. I think pass over 3S is 100% correct - partner should bid 4S on Q10xxx Qx Kxxx - all his points are working and my double is at the 3 level, not the 1 level.

 

The reason I leave 3D or 3S is this: I do not want to get to a thin game here. Our finesses are not likely to work and suits are not likely to break. In fact, there's a case for even leaving 3H.

[Winstonm]

I think X is right. If partner bids 3H I raise, else I pass. I think pass over 3S is 100% correct - partner should bid 4S on Q10xxx Qx Kxxx - all his points are working and my double is at the 3 level, not the 1 level.

 

The reason I leave 3D or 3S is this: I do not want to get to a thin game here. Our finesses are not likely to work and suits are not likely to break. In fact, there's a case for even leaving 3H.

 

Agree. What you really have is a balanced 17-count, a good hand but nothing to write home about.

[wank]

i count 19 myself. it's rather early to be entirely discounting the queen of clubs. he's opened 3rd in hand. he could have anything.

 

as for passing 3S, methinks you're barking up the wrong tree. it's not like we're choosing whether to invite or just bid game and we've got a nice safe 140 available. here 3NT might be 3 off, but 3S will often be just as bad.

[Winstonm]

i count 19 myself. it's rather early to be entirely discounting the queen of clubs. he's opened 3rd in hand. he could have anything.

 

as for passing 3S, methinks you're barking up the wrong tree. it's not like we're choosing whether to invite or just bid game and we've got a nice safe 140 available. here 3NT might be 3 off, but 3S will often be just as bad.

 

I don't totally discount the club Q but until proven otherwise, it isn't a plus. An interesting note to this hand is that it could well be one where the Ax of clubs needs to declare 3NT but how do you get there?

[wank]

I don't totally discount the club Q but until proven otherwise, it isn't a plus. An interesting note to this hand is that it could well be one where the Ax of clubs needs to declare 3NT but how do you get there?

 

x-3d-3h-3nt ideally, although it's quite hard to come up with a hand where partner isn't raising to 4H - 3262 shape not suitable for 2D (or not available).